Seth Hi there and welcome back to the Hugos There podcast. I'm your host, Seth Heasley, and I'm reading the Hugo Winners, one guest at a time. My guest for this episode is a repeat guest on the podcast, but not the main feed, Sarah Elkins, and we're going to be discussing Paladin of Souls by Lois McMaster Bujold, which was the 2004 winner of the Hugo Award for Best Novel. Hi Sarah, nice to see you again! Sarah Hey! Nice to be here again. Seth Or, talk to you again. Uh, nobody else is seeing this, but you and I can see each other. Sarah That's right Seth It is always fun to podcast with someone I'm already comfortable with. It's a barrier that doesn't have to be broken down. And on that note, listeners to the podcast or to the panel discussions we've done on various things including Ladyhawke will already know you. But I want to give you a chance to talk about your background relevant to this discussion. Sarah Sure, so hi I'm Sarah Elkins. I've been active in fandom since my teens and I've been reading science fiction and fantasy since maybe before my teens. Growing up I read a lot of science fiction and pulp adventure stories from my Father's bookshelves, from Edgar Rice Burroughs, to Larry Niven, lots of different authors in many bookshelves in my parents' house. So, uh, we didn't pay much attention to Hugo Awards back then. Just didn't follow the awards stuff at all. But I tallied it up and I've read about 35 now of the Best Novels, the winners, and I've been nominating and voting for most categories for the last few years. Seth Cool, and that makes sense, and that made you a good participant for the panel discussions we've had. That's been an outgrowth of me finally nominating and voting in the Hugos, so. Sarah Well, there's so much interesting work beyond the best novel category. I certainly enjoy reading the novels. But there's a lot of good, good work out there in the other categories, too. Seth Yeah, yeah, there definitely is. So we had we've been talking about what what book to cover for a while, and at some point you had had offered to switch but you also there was a particular reason you wanted to cover this one. So do you want to talk about why this book? Sarah Right, so Paladin of Souls, I love this book, I got it in hardback, as soon as it was available, I'd been reading Bujold from her science fiction and followed her into her fantasy, I had read the precursor to this book, The Curse of Chalion. And this one pivots, though, to mostly different characters. And I found the characters that are covered in this story, really interesting. And their relationships and their thoughts and struggles are a fair bit different in tone, at least, although some of the same ground maybe is covered. But I think it would work fairly well as a standalone for someone who hadn't read the first book in this Five gods world. And I would think, you know, for readers coming to it out of context, it ought to work fairly well, because of the character pivot. There are some references to events in the past, which there are in so many history, fantasy, you know, historic fantasy, where you've got, you know, hundreds of years ago, blah, blah, blah, you know, and so, so, so no more than those kinds of books, I would say, this book has some history before the story starts. But I think the author handles it. Well. I've read it multiple times. And I read it again, before our discussion. And listen, I know Seth, you often listen by audiobook. So I from the library, I listened to some of the audiobook as well, just to kind of get an idea of what you would have been listening to with the narrator and so on. Seth Mmm. It's funny, because I, I started this one off on the audiobook, but it was one of those things where I requested the audiobook, and it came through like right before Christmas. And so I just never got to it. And I only had like four days left and not much time to deal with it. So I really only got me through like the first four chapters in audio, and then then I read the rest in print. And that was, you know, kind of moving into overall thoughts about this is not my kind of book. You know, I I'm much more of a science fiction reader, I have not really read that much classic fantasy kind of what you think of you know, the Lord of the Rings kind of thing. I've read a few of the sort of classics in that. But it's never been like a genre that I really, really love. There was a time where I was tracking my reading and I realized that I had read almost all fantasy that year because I had read the whole like the Heroes of Olympus and the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series in the same year. The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the Prydain Chronicles and a couple like young adults more urban fantasy kind of thing. So I do dabble in it. But it's not always been a genre that I that I really, really like. A few years ago, I, I did get the audiobook for The Curse of Chalion because I knew eventually I would be getting to this book. And so memory wasn't super fresh about it. Going into reading this, and so I kind of I didn't quite get the, the first, you know, the person who had went in completely cold experience. But you know, a lot of the stuff with the theology of the Five gods was, I had to relearn in this book. And of course, Bujold, it's not like Bujold, it's not like she has no experience writing books in series where she wants somebody to be able to enjoy it on its own right? Because the Vorkosigan saga is massive, right? And she tries to make those so that they're readable as standalones. And so yeah, I think this one probably works fairly well as a as a standalone, the only thing I had remembered about The Curse of Chalion, is that there was a really interesting kind of finale to the book, because there was this prophecy of someone dying three times for something. And I kept going, well, how is he gonna die a third time? You know, how's it how's this? How's the math going to work on that? And so I remember enjoying it. And full disclosure, sorry, been monologuing a bit here. I really did like this one. Oh, good. I enjoyed it a great deal. It was it was a bit of a slog at the very beginning. And the audio really kind of helped me get over that hurdle, which was nice. So I did go back and reread the parts that that I covered on audio as well, just because I wanted to get more of a flavor of that. And like, okay, yeah, I can see why that was not totally working for me, because it just all of a sudden, I started reading and I was like, Oh, look, another fantasy book about a person going from this place to this place. Sarah Yes, fantasy books do often have road trips. There's very slow road trips for having things move along, plot wise and so on. Yeah. On on what you were saying before about prophecies, and what is this prophecy mean, in the in the predecessor? That's also pretty common in, you know, going back to the Sibyls. In Greek mythology, yeah. What does this prophecy mean, you know, well, the sails are black. What does that mean? What, you know, what was that prophecy? really supposed to signify? And that's, I think, a common part of fantasy that deals with mythology, where you're trying to figure out, you know, I think they're trying to give me a message. What does that mean? That's that's kind of a puzzle. And I agree in the previous book, you were trying to figure that out. And, and that's in some ways, true in this as well, because they're grappling with messages from gods and what does that mean? Seth Yeah, but but it was very satisfying in The Curse of Chalion. That's what I remember. Yeah, I remember. Okay. I was I was super pleased with the way that all wrapped up. Sarah Yeah. Well, by now Bujold really knows how to put things together, how to lay groundwork early that then has a rich reward later on in the book. Seth Yes. And and you know, she has a tendency to write very readable prose. Right. And so even if it's fantasy, it's not, it's not dull. It's always it's always interesting. Sarah Right, so you were talking about how it starts a bit slow. And I agree, some readers are definitely going to find that experience. And it's, I think a lot of that has to do with the the character in the, in the start of the book, the main character, Ista has kind of turned herself off as much as possible to get through every day. And in the start of the book, she's gradually waking up a little bit. I'm having new thoughts for the first time in years. And, and that can be a bit of a slog to get through, there's definitely some characters who are grappling with some issues in this book. And, and, and that's that some, in some ways this, this book starts out a little grimmer and darker than then some people may be expecting from some other some other officials work. Yeah. Seth Well, and, you know, in at least with my experience with fantasy, lots of times the protagonists are in their prime, you know, you know, young ish, and if you think about the Lord of the Rings, you know, Frodo was I think in his 40s By the time he sets out on the, on the quest, but Sarah but, they consider a middle still pretty young, because the hobbits are long lived, so yeah, Seth exactly. We're here you have a main character who's definitely middle age. Sarah Right, right. She's, she has children. Seth She has grown children. Yeah. And so that's interesting. That speaks to me. I have an adult son as well. Sarah Right. So there are a lot of things going on in this book. One spoiler free way I would recap it is a middle aged queen Mother goes on a road trip to escape annoying people. finds more than she was expecting. That's really spoiler free, but you know, there's very much The the character Ista. That's kind of all you see over to start. And then as the book goes on, you learn much more about her. And, yeah, that's Seth it. And she was a character in The Curse of Chalian. But and she was, you know, god touched and considered mad. Right. Right. And because of the curse, right, right. Sarah So so people who read the first book would know a little bit about hear her but this is so much more from her point of view, and you see a lot more of, of what her earlier story was really like, beyond the gloss and a high romance. So if you know she married the king, etc. Here, you find out really what that was like. And yeah, it's it's not all rainbows, and Seth no, no, definitely not. I and she had, she had a hard time of it. And so I feel like there's something that I can also relate to in there with at the beginning of the book. She's, she's been through all these tough times. And now she's just had it, right. It's just like, I want to go do something for myself. (Sarah: Right. Right.) And, and sets out and comes up with a story that she can tell. When she gets, you know, essentially, she tries to sneak off rate, Sarah right? She she would like to just leave and she sets off ill prepared. And that doesn't work out so well. But she comes up with an idea in her first attempt for how maybe she can really get away for at least a little while. Seth Turn it into a religious pilgrimage. Sarah yes. And that that's that's not a bad idea on her part. Because the world of, of the Five gods this this setting, there are a lot of people who are pretty serious about their religious vocations. Who do go on on pilgrimages, and there are other people who just go on pilgrimages just because they want to be out on the road, maybe away from supervision for a little while. Seth yeah, and she had been kept for a long time, right? Sarah Yes, yes, it's it's her. She's seizing a chance to get away from the castle where she's been pretty much constrained for years and years and years. And so I think many readers who read her in the first few pages will have a sympathy for her getting away, you know, wanting to get away. There's there's a paragraphs where her ladies and waiting are just endlessly chattering. And they've all gotten in the habit of because Ista had been considered mad earlier. They've all gotten in the habit of kind of disregarding things. She says, yeah, and infantilizing her. And so maybe she's not capable. Right? And how can she get away on this pilgrimage is a way to get away. So just before we go too further with that, on the overview Bujold's books often have lively characters, sometimes with ethical challenges. There are always some interesting relationships between between the characters, and funny bits. She definitely does humor very well, even in a book with a lot of grimness, like this one. And good dialogue, she really writes characters who feel, you know, it feels like you're reading real people who are who are talking about things, and they have very different personalities from each other. So yeah, this one does start slow. But the slowness is kind of Ista is just kind of bursting to get out of this slowness. And so in a way it kind of kicks off the plot. And pretty soon some pretty exciting things start to happen with it. Seth And to be fair, when I when I say it starts slow. It's a couple chapters. Sarah Yeah, it's not like yeah, it's not the first half of the book. It's it gets on the road pretty soon. Yeah. Seth And encounters bandits. Yeah. And writers and things and it gets exciting. And she writes a battle scene really, really well. She does write and then she gets pulled into into the mysteries of poor forests. And I really, really want to encourage people if you haven't read this one, there's some there's some great reveals in it Sarah Yeah, and and I want to stay away from those reveals you know, certainly until we get to the Spoiler section. Yes. The right there mysterious and magical goings on. Yeah, I did want to talk some about the magic in this. You know, people may be saying well, this is just another neofeudal fantasy. Well, yes and no. One of the things that Bujold is grappling with in this whole her this is part of the series, The Five gods World Series that also won Hugo for best the series, and I find the theology in this book really interesting. But I'll tell people, it's not like you're trying to sit down and read David Hume, or a very dry treatise, you know, it's it's getting into sort of mythology world building. But the gods in this world are pretty present. Not to everyone, but it's very well known that gods really appear to people really talk with them. And the way that and the magic intersect is in this book is also interesting. And so, so just to explain to a little bit, there are four or five gods in this world, depending on how you count them. However you count them, they work through people, they can only work through people have those people's own freewill. And I do want to talk more about freewill later in later in our discussion, because that's a really pivotal topic in this book. So each god, each god has an order devoted to their service. So you have the Mother, the Father, the Daughter, the Son, and the Bastard. So each god is a little different in their focus. And for people who talk to them, you don't have to be perfect to do so. But you have to be really open to them. And actually, Seth, I was thinking about this. This is a little bit related to our Ladyhawke discussion that we discussed earlier. Because in that book, in sorry, in that movie, Mouse is not a perfect person, he's a thief, but he talks to god directly. Yeah, he may not always be sure, god is listening very attentively. But you know, it does feel that he can talk, just talk to god. And in this book, there are orders, there are prayers there are, you know, religious authority figures, but it's also perfectly plausible. For for an individual if they're, if they're, if they're prepared and open if they're not bound up in anger, or resentment or other things that can distract people and so, so she's she's getting at some interesting thoughts about religion, and not in a pages and pages of discourse way, but just in the way, these characters are all relating to god, and how they look at it. So that's one thing, you have the gods, and they can work their will only three people, then there are also demons, and demons in this book, they're not necessarily evil, they're agents of chaos. And depending on how they come into the world that can come into animals or people without their consent. But it kind of depends on you know, what experiences these forces have coming into the world. How are they shaped by the beings that they enter? And there's there's a lot to do with that in this book, and even more in some of her other books. Right? Seth Yeah, it's, it's fun to that there are that not everybody in this world accepts the same theology of the gods right, because you have the Quadreen they call them the Quadreen heretics in a neighboring country Sarah right right right I named Five gods and they don't believe in the Bastard as a god yeah, Seth well and even in the Quintarian religion right they understand that the Bastard is the offspring of the Mother and a demon right a special one Sarah right there's there's some and one of the priests that we get to know in this book are a brother, dy Cabon, talks about they're actually some different ideas about exactly how that happened. So anyway, the the demons can cause a lot of problems in the world. And some orders the really more the Bastard's order works to contain and direct the chaos of the demons. So um, so yeah, as far as the mythology in this book, most of the evil comes from people. They don't view the demons as evil although the Quadreen which is the sect, the the group, nations that only believe in for god's view, the Quintarians the believers and five as heretics. Again, it's coming from people and so you don't have a great dark, evil In this fantasy series, unlike some others, like the Dark Is Rising, you know, just recently on Christmas and so on. So, and for me that works a little better for reading a fantasy along those lines. Seth Yeah. And in many ways, it's it's similar to the Greek gods, and they're a little aloof, definitely capricious, and some of the things that they do through people, the people are convenient to them, right? It's useful to the gods to do something right. And therefore, I'm going to come through you and yes, you have technically free will about it, but I might make your life miserable if you don't do what I want Sarah Right sending dream after dream after dream. Yes, definitely. The gods have their intentions. And and that's not always how ordinary people are going to be looking at what needs to happen. Seth Yeah, the Quadreen versus contrarian thing reminds me a little bit of just like Christianity, and Islam and Judaism all all define themselves as monotheists. But non Trinitarian religions look at Christianity and go sure you have one god? Sarah Right. Right, right. And certainly someone could look at the gods in this world and say, Well, are they all just different aspects. But that's not at all how juries people on this world look at it. At least not the people who are active characters in the book. So going back to the title, Paladin of Souls. So one common way to play Paladins in Dungeons and Dragons is as rigid, unyielding, self righteous, holy warriors. I've been in a D&D campaign with one of those paladins. And, boy, they make it really awkward to try and have a good adventure. You know, they can also be incredibly noble and generous and giving, often with healing powers. Don't think of that when you think of this book. Because here instead, what you have is Ista. And she the the the queen Mother on the run, ie pilgrimage that I mentioned before, and she, she is the dowager Rowena of Chalion. She's the Mother of the woman who is now the queen. And she's mad at the gods for events in the past, that she's guilty over a fatal mistake she made back in the past, out of panic and fear for her children. But it was a fatal mistake. And she's just had it like you said, Seth just had it. She she doesn't want to go pray. She doesn't really want to hear anything more about the gods, although she knows she's going on a milk pilgrimage. So she knows she's gonna have to hear some more. But she's she's hoping to not Yeah, she's the pilgrimage is her only way out of the castle. That's what she's doing. So she's maybe not someone everyone might definitely think of for a choice for a Paladin, in addition to being you know, a middle aged woman with no sword training, et cetera, et cetera. But the thing about Paladins is they're usually sworn to working, at least in D&D, they're usually sworn to or working with a particular god. And I know there were paladins, before D&D, but that was really my reference to them. I mean, there's been in fiction, you know, longer than before there was D&D, but yeah, anyway. So but they're usually sworn to a specific god, in D&D, and different gods may have different focuses, priorities. You were mentioning in this book, gods are kind of using people and not always caring a lot about what that person wanted. And Ista is completely aware of this. Due to you know, her previous experience, you know, she refers to the gods as chewing people up and spitting them out, she is bitter. She, she she is she is not eager to be in service to gods again. And so, so the whole thing about Paladins you know, it has, which god they're with has an effect on what they do and how they do it. And that's relevant for things how how things work for Ista that this time, last time she was, the gods can call different people to service and people don't always succeed at those tasks. Sometimes they turn away and so on, or sometimes they try and fail. I mentioned Ista's previous panic, born of panic and fear. That's when she was trying to work with the Mother, goddess. And things are different in this book a different gods. It's working with her. He has a little bit more of a sense of humor that kind of works well with the gallows humor that she's kind of developed over her life. Seth Oh, yeah. He's got a sixth sense. Sarah Yes, he does. And it and it's fun. And the thing is, although Ista has been, so I'm worn down by a lot of her life. She, you know, as she's on the road, she kind of uncoils a bit of herself. And, and you see that actually, she has kind of a mischievous sense of humor. She is not a reverent person. You know, she is irreverent. And actually, that works pretty well with the Bastard that she starts working with. Seth Yeah, yeah. And you know, along the way, she she comes in contact with Liss, who becomes sort of her handmaiden, though she is she's very much to the working class handmaidens. And she's a terrific character. Sarah Right. I love Liss. Yes. This is fantastic. Yeah. So the, her the people who have been her keepers try to make her pilgrimage into this big pageant. And boy, Ista does not want that she wants to go on the road with a few people, and just lead a simple life and just be away from the castle and not have to have her hair done in elaborate coils every time. And, you know, they keep braiding her hair so tight that it gives her a headache, and she doesn't want that. And Liss is someone that she lights on to help her kind of break, you know, the kind of life that she's been in and how have something a little more relaxed on the road? Seth Yeah, practical. Yeah. Sarah So there is more. I did want to talk about some of the other things like free will, but I think that might lead us into spoilers category Seth Yeah, I think we've been going long enough on on non spoilers. We didn't really talk about comps for it. There's an element here that's a little spoilery. That reminds me of The Picture of Dorian Gray. But ah, I think you had some comps written down Sarah Yeah I did. So I'll be interested to hear about the Dorian Gray but but for me I had for an obvious one is Geoffrey Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales, where a bunch of people go on a pilgrimage, and it has a bunch of bawdy tails in it. You know, the these are not your most reverent people on a pilgrimage, the one that Geoffrey Chaucer talks about and they tell each other stories as they go on the road. And some of the stories are bawdy. And that actually kind of lines up with some of the stuff in this book. Now this book isn't over the top there is not this is not a bodice ripper. You know, it's not that kind of bawdy. But these people are very aware of real life and real bodies. And I mentioned instance in the Bastards sense of humor. I also would would talk about Charlotte Perkins Gilman, The Yellow Wallpaper. That's a classic horror story about a woman whose husband and doctor basically don't recognize what she's dealing with decides she's going crazy. And that the best way to deal with her is to keep her locked up in this room, which has this Yellow Wallpaper That is creepy. And so in the story, there's reading the story, you're not quite sure. Well, Is she crazy? Is her husband, right? Is the wallpaper haunted? Or is she just some poor woman, young woman who is being trapped by people who think they know best? And that's very relevant to the first part of part of this book. Now The Yellow Wallpaper is it can be a tough read. So can this one as you read more about in the book, it turns out that earlier in her life, Ista was gaslighted by her husband and her husband's best friend. And you know, there's so there's definitely for some people that will read as horror. Absolutely. People who can put themselves in the shoes of that kind of situation. So So I would say, you know, that reminded me a lot of The Yellow Wallpaper. Then you were talking about Paladins Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion Series does have as a Paladin, someone who does a lot of sword fighting, which is not what Ista does, but it starts off with a woman on she's a sheep farmer's daughter. That's the first book in the series and she goes on the road to be of service somehow and gets in over her head and bad things happen. And she also Well, I guess this is a spoiler for for that but she kind of becomes a saint And the the paths that Paksenarrion and Ista are taking are very different. But they are both struggling with people who think they know what the right way to be a saint is. And they are, you know, trying to actually pay attention to what they think their god is telling them and not so much to what other people are telling them. The right way to be is, yeah. And then the only other one I'd bring up right now is Joe Graham has written some historical fantasies with humans interactions with gods starting with Lost Souls. That's a book about a Trojan priestess, who maybe doesn't come from quite the right background, but is trying to listen to what her Lady of the Dead is telling her. And she also falls in with a bunch of soldiers who are on the run, and trying to figure out something for themselves. So So I would say that this book falls really well in with any of those books. So I would say, if you're interested in those books, you'll be interested in this book, and vice versa, if you like these, if you read this and like it, I think you might want to look at the other books that I just mentioned. Seth Okay. Okay, cool. I mean, I'll add them to my list as well, just because, since I've been so focused more on science fiction for so long and uneducated in fantasy. There's no reason to think that a book like this couldn't become my type of book. Sarah Sure, I'll mention of the ones that I mentioned, The Yellow Wallpaper is a short read. It's only a few short, horrible pages. Seth Okay, sounds fun. I definitely prefer my horrible pages and smaller. Right. Let's go ahead and jump over into spoilers. And I want to start I want to make a comment here that is not too spoiler heavy, just to give people the chance to find the button and, and, and skip to the next episode if they want. Normally in it particularly like superhero, television and movies, right Smallville, or any other places, I'm really impatient with people concealing a gift that they have, because normally it doesn't serve anything other than just to keep the tension up, right, the dramatic tension, and I can't really justify for the character to do it. But in this case, you know, she she has this second sight, and you can completely understand with her background, her not wanting to tell anyone about it, because for fear of being considered mad again, even though of course, you know, they live in this this area where they have the theology of the Five gods and so there's no reason to think that someone who says The gods have been talking to me, isn't crazy, right? If somebody said that today to one of us would go, Well, okay. Let's find you a padded room. Or some, you know, some drugs or something Sarah Right but it's so common, I mean it's every day common. But it's, it's absolutely not an unknown. And that's part of what's so heartbreaking. About You know, her own Mother, um, dismisses her, as you know, overdramatizing. And it's, it's, you know, she's had, she's got reasons to be bitter and angry. She absolutely does. And I would happily geek with you about Smallville. And the secrecy there that is a plot device. And yeah, I could happily chat about that. But yeah, in this book, she has reasons to be rejecting things. Seth Yeah, there's a real risk that if she if she talked to someone, frankly, about her, her second sight and her abilities that she would just be, you know, put back in the box. Sarah Right, right. Seth It kind of reminds me of when you I've seen YouTubes about about medical reporting and the way women and particularly women of color are treated in medical settings, where they're assumed to be exaggerating their symptoms, right. And which is just shocking to me. Sarah Right. I used to work at National Cancer Institute and have read papers about disparate medical treatments and analyses and diagnoses depending on gender and color and yes, I mean, I'm lucky the in in some ways that that I'm white woman, you know, because at least some people will listen to me some of the time. But that's definitely a thing. And this book doesn't really get into gender politics as such. It's just, you're living in it, you know, so, but there's no diatribes in this book it, you know, right, Seth but nobody else in her family was considered mad. It's even though they went through similar things. Sarah Right, right. I mean, I think it's there if you're paying attention. But it's it's not lectured in the book. Seth Yes. Agreed. Sarah Okay. So yeah, this book has depth to it, for sure. And I think that may be one reason why it got a Hugo and the first one didn't maybe because there's some more serious things going on. I mean, you could also look at, you know, which books were was each competing against, and how that works, or so on. There's, there's, there's multiple reasons. Um, so. So yeah, let me give a little bit more to listeners about what actually happens in this book. So she goes on a pilgrimage. She's, as I mentioned, she's trying to pick people to go with her that are going to be fun and lighthearted and not all, 'Oh, no Ista, you must wear the purple slippers,' you know, and blah, blah, blah. And it turns out that there's an invasion from another company, a country and so they have to deal with a lot of unpleasant things. And so they take refuge in another castle. They left one castle. They've been traveling across the country, having a few nice pilgrimage adventures, you know, stopping in this town and that temple and Seth so we get the one one church service where dy Cabon gets to do his explanation of the Five gods for the new readers. Sarah It's very handy for us. Yes. But, but so they wind up in this other Castle that's led by two half brothers, one of whom is apparently gravely, and the other of whom is not apparently gravely ill to most eyes. Seth Oh, yes. And it's such a good mystery. Oh, yeah, Sarah it really is. And the castle is besieged by more of the people who had attacked their pilgrimage party to begin with. Ista also has some clashes with the lady of the castle, the one married to the the brother who's, you know, so legitimate Seth Lord of the march, right? Sarah The march for fortress, yes. And so you know, being besieged by this other country, it turns out, there's a whole lot of sorcery going on, in and out of the castle. And there's a there, there are a lot of struggles and Ista, starts talking to the Bastard more because he's talking to her. And she's she's seeing, seeing things before her that she, you know, she was brought up to have some sense of duty, and she feels like she has to has to do things, you know, to help her friends and be her country. And she's, she's, you know, as reluctant and betrayed by her past. You know, that she was she's, she's got a strong sense of I'm setting things right. So, you know, she's, she's come awake, and she sees there's work set before her. Seth Right? Well, and she's she starts to see the upside of her. god touched status. Sarah Right. Right. Well, there's things she needs to do. And she has to open herself back up to the god's vision that he's he's allowed to or that he's graced her with. Yeah, Seth but it's such a good moment when when she says she turns and says, So, Lord Arhys, how long have you been dead? Sarah Yes. Oh, good. She um, she's she's got a great sense of humor. And I am she she thinks she solved the riddle of why did the god kiss her forehead in her vision? And so she kisses a couple of people thinking that she's about to do something with that kiss. And then it's just kind of each time it's just a kiss. And so then she has to resort to Alright, I guess I still have to figure out what's going on here on what is it I am supposed to do and can't you people just tell me and you know, right yeah, yeah. Seth Yeah, just trying to get people to tell her the truth. Right. Kind of has to do all the it's almost like a like a detective story. Yeah. Because she she has to kind of collude with Liss to distract lady Cattilara, you know to get her get her out of the castle. Sarah The Lady of the castle does not want this mystery solved because She's pretty much in denial. Cattilara is in denial about everything that's going on right now. None of it, of course, is Cattilara's fault from Cattilara's point of view. Seth Right? Well, I mean, she was a victim. And, and she's just leaning into that. And you're still trying to? It's over. There is no, there's no happy ending to the way she's doing it. Everybody's going to die. Sarah Right. And one of the things that Ista says to Cattilara, during the book is, you are married to a commander, a lord and commander of an area, you grew up, the daughter of another Lord and Commander, you cannot possibly have been brought up to this wild self indulgence. You know, and I know from Cattilara's point of view, this is also unfair. And Ista does point out that lots of people have unfair things happen to them. Seth But she knows better than most Yeah. So this is where The Picture of Dorian Gray kind of comes into it. Because you have you have our eyes going out onto a field of battle and taking a wound that doesn't affect him. It affects Illvin. It affects him or whoever he's tethered to through the magic. Who's who's kind of taking that wound for him temporarily, while he's still being kept alive. Right. The only difference is in The Picture of Dorian Gray. It's all it's all moral wounds. Here, it's physical. Sarah Right? Right. Um, and I've certainly seen a lot of meme treatments of The Picture of Dorian Gray. Yes, that's kind of what this magic is the the, because of the the, one of the demons that's involved here. Those wounds kind of travel sympathetically to the other people instead of Lord Arhys. Sarah But, um, those wounds that, you know, his brother Illvin gets, for instance, for part of the book, are not of Illvin's will. So I did want to circle back on the freewill topic. It's really important in this book, and not just a matter of the gods and their creations, though. That's certainly you know, the context that I'm most familiar with, in general, but this book also has, has, what you could call freewill topics coming up over and over in families in the story, so Ista's family, protects her, almost to the point of her madness, you know, they almost drive her mad by protecting and swaddling and, like, not letting her take two steps without running after 'Oh, my lady. You know, this is, you know, very dangerous,' so on and so on. Um, the brothers later in the book tried to protect Cattilara, from the chance to do something meaningful and dangerous, you know, and, and there's a whole lot of people protecting people for their own good, which somewhat takes away from free will. Seth Yeah. Sarah And, you know, Contrastingly, there's, there's examples in the book of, you know, Liss. When Ista early in the book asks, well, how did you get your parents permission and Liss is like, I kind of forgot to ask them. To explain a little more is a royal courier, and she's very good on a horse on a fast horse. She loves to ride and get away from troubles, she can generally ride away from any trouble she encounters. Seth And she's a bit of a show off, she's gonna show off. Sarah She's a bit of a show off, and she's, um, but but she's very merry. She's not a she's not a jokester. She's actually pretty quiet most of the time. And that's one thing. She's kind of a relief for Ista to be around because she's not always talking at her hand. You know, oh, my lady, she's but But nonetheless, a merry person, a happy person. But back on, you know, the gods. The Bastard is a really good lineup for Ista, because he has the sense to know that what she needs is something to do. He, you know, when she asked, What can the gods possibly look you killed my son, you know, is is an accusation. She levels fairly or not, but and she says, What can you possibly offer me that can tempt me to work with you? And the Bastard says, work? Right. Which you know if you're someone who has been told for the last 50 or more years that you're mad and useless and just have to be this pampered thing on a throne or you know in a room? Boy, that can sound pretty enticing and it does sound it does attract Ista that she could do something. Seth Yeah, yeah. Sarah But it's still a choice. You know, and it takes, it takes Ista quite a while to be ready for that choice. Seth Yeah, I had a question that I was hoping you would be able to, to answer for me just for the World of Five gods and especially the Curse of Chalion. Did any of the stuff about the I think the Father of both Arhys and Illvin, who had who had died, you know, died through tragic circumstances? Is that mentioned in Chalion? Or is that only in this book? Sarah I think it is, when Cazaril meets Ista. So Cazaril,is the protagonist for those who haven't read it, of The Curse of Chalion. And he meets Ista at one point, and he has heard some, and he I think he may have heard about the rumor about what happened to the two half brothers Father, or well, that's not saying it quite right. But anyway, he he's, I think he's heard enough. He mean, that may not be something he directly asks her about. He certainly knows that she has been accused of being mad, but since he can see ghosts, and is somewhat gods touched, as well, he's one of the few people who's actually talked to her who says, Oh, she's not crazy. She's just kind of like me. Seth Yeah, yeah. Well, and the story, you know, as it unfolds here is is you find out that it's the peril of trying to interpret the prophecies and make the prophecy happen, because because they think, Oh, someone's gonna die three times for us. So let's drown them resuscitate, drown, resuscitate, drown, and this curse will be broken. Sarah It's not the worst possible interpretation. I mean, they're trying to make sense of it. But they, they are impatient, and they panic and things go very badly. And Ista thinks about that a lot during the book, and thinks about how could things have been different? Maybe if they had waited and let let someone rebuild their courage? Maybe they could have tried it again. Or maybe, you know, she comes up with other ideas in the book of maybe how things could have gone differently. But you know, that's that chance is gone. But she still has some sense to do some things. Seth Right. I had written on a quote from Illvin, and I can't remember if it was when she was telling him about attempting to, you know, work, the miracle of lifting the curse. And he says to her, 'most people fail to work miracles most of the time.' Sarah Yes. she confesses her sin a few times, and it finally starts getting easier for her. And you know, she's had this bottled up this guilt bottled up. Guilt and rage bottled up for so long. And finally talking about it several times for particular reasons, is part of I think, what helps kind of ease the logjam in her? I have a couple of quotes too. Seth Yeah, go for it. Sarah Okay. So early in the book. This is Ista, 'she decided to return straight speech for straight speech, it was rare enough in a Rowena's hearing and ought to be encouraged.' So this is where, you know, someone asks her something pretty blunt. And she's kind of taken aback. But she has the sense to know, it's really not good to only so surround yourself with flatterers. Especially if you're a powerful person, really, especially then. And that's a parallel with something that's made more of this is kind of a remark in passing in this book, in Bujold's The Hallowed Hunt, which is another five gods novel, that's a much bigger plot element. So I just thought that was interesting on this reread to come across that. And then later in the book, he says, 'You cannot push the darkness back with reason you have to use fire.' Literally, that's true. You know, literally, if you're sitting in the dark, you know, fire or electricity to make light or something along the lines of that. And I certainly know, you know, I was brought up with a lot of emphasis on reason and logic. And I know that I still have the impulse to say, look, if I just explain it so they can understand it, you know, but that's just not always how it how it works. Seth No, no, the backfire effect is very well documented this point, right? Sarah Yeah. So two quotes that I just found of note when I was when I was rereading it on the topic of people thinking how other people should be dealing with these big life challenges, you know, this is how you should deal with the gods. You know, one of the things this book does have romance in it. So there is kissing stuff in this book. But it's, it's pretty late in the book, it's not that bad. But um, so despite it having some romance, it has a very sharp take on people who romanticize other people's challenges. So, early in the book dy Cabon, the learned brother who's sent to be their spiritual guide on the pilgrimage. He keeps urging Ista to do things that he has no real concept of their impact. You know, he's he's got all these ideas about how wonderful it is to be god touched. And Ista is like, well, you have no idea. Seth Right, where he wants it, but he doesn't know what he wants. Sarah Right, and he's, he's sincere in wanting it but he just, you know, doesn't understand. In this book when when Ista encounters a god, yes, she and the Bastard develop a little bit of a, I wouldn't quite call it repartee. It's not that casual, but a little bit of a relationship where there's a little give and take. But meeting gods in this, in this world, is not like meeting a Greek god, in the old stories, it is meeting an overwhelming presence. And often what they want to view is not going to be easy, it is not going to be fun. So that's one kind of Romanticism. And then also Arhys, the Lord of the castle and Cattilara, each have romantic takes on this jumbled up idea of tragic love that they think it's what Ista's past is and that's so foreign. So so far from what Ista actually had to go through. And yet they've got these kinds of starry ideas about what things were like for her. And I would say that Bujold is you know, she doesn't have a lot of patience with people who romanticize tough things. In one of her science fiction books, one character is criticizing his Father for being in love with the romance of tough choices. You know, I'm the tough guy who, I don't know, let this let the sick person fall behind so the zombies can get them that's not in the Bujold book. But you know, the romance of the tough choices. of you know, I'm the tough person who makes this cold, hard decision. Bujold is really not not all in on, you know, she's she's in on romance and love, but not in kind of dewy eyed romance that just wants to look at everything through rose colored glasses. Seth It actually reminds me of a moment in a very funny movie Men in Black, where J starts to find out about K's past and he finds out that he's got this tragic romantic history, right? And he says, Oh, well, you know, it is better to have loved and lost and never to have loved at all. And Tommy Lee Jones as K just kind of leans over and says, 'Try it.' Yes, the voice of experience is going to beat the romantic notion. Seth I just wanted to pick up on the the kind of romance angle and I feel like it is it's nice and subtle. And I really like the relationship between Illvin and Ista very organic, right? It's just logical, they're spending this time together and really knowing each other quite intimately over that time. I like the fact that Illvin isn't pushy about it. Right? That just essentially is at some point, he's just like, I mean, I'm right here. So as soon as you're ready and he says to her because she at some point in this book kind of has this sense of the greater purpose and that you know, no, we're not going to live through this there's no point in making future plans and and that kind of thing and he says to her at some point, 'time is where you take it it will not linger for you,' saying you at some point you know, you have to make the decision for yourself and and you have to you have to embrace now because because you cannot guarantee that you get it later I always say I say this to my son sometimes usually like in the realm of financial planning and that kind of stuff I tell him you can't get the years back or even with interpersonal stuff right? If if you think you know I can I can talk to her later I can I can I can approach her you know, after I graduate from college or whatever and I know you might want to now is guaranteed but the future is not right. Sarah Right. In one of her other books a character has this plan of when he's going to bring up the idea of dating to some other character, and she having no idea of this goes off and marry someone else. And he's like, but I have this plan. Maybe I should have said something in this story, Illvin, he approaches her in the middle of a battle, you know, round the castle ramparts, and that. Yeah, he's his mouth. He offers her some, hey, do you want some baked horse meat, you know, and he's munching on it, you know? But but he knows. The moment is now this, this may be it. And I don't want to have more regrets of chances I didn't take so. And that's what he tells her. He's kind of working himself up to it gently. He doesn't like pounce on her but gently, you know, pulling her in for a kiss. And she lets him and his idea is, this is it. You know? Yes. Maybe we'll die tonight or tomorrow. And I'm going to kiss you now because I can kiss you now. Let's kiss. Let's kiss. And it's great. Seth I mean, he he kind of had learned some lessons from watching his brother as well, because his brother was doing doing everything to please his Father. Right? And it was never gonna happen. Right? Sarah Right. Right. He has a very clear view of what's going on with his brother. And fortunately, he loves his brother. And he has like, a little bit of a wry appreciation for the fact that women just keep parading right past him to his brother, you know, his his his very dramatic and classically handsome and all of that brother, he's used to everyone kind of, but he also thinks his brother is kind of a fool for not looking. I mean, yes, his brother's married, but he thinks his brother ought to at least realize, well, Ista is pretty awesome. You know, and he sees that she's pretty awesome. And he kind of here's, here's someone who's actually not falling for my glamorous brother. She's actually got a pretty good brain in there. Seth Not that there wasn't a little bit there. Right? She was a little bit. Sarah Yeah. Seth Because because this is the thing also of having these characters that are that are more middle aged. Catillara is not middle aged. She's She's younger, right? And she's not Arhys's first wife. Right? And, and so there was stuff in there where it seemed like she was like, Oh, hey, okay, this this guy's very handsome and really good with the sword. Sarah And she's able to wake up, you know, she has thinking at all, you know, when she was walled up in that other castle. There was there was no prospects and she wasn't even thinking about it. The Bastard is kind of waking her up to life and possibilities. She's having new thoughts. That's what sets her on the pilgrimage, she has a new thought she wants the road. Seth She's, I really liked that when she said she wanted the road. Sarah Yes that's, that's in the first few pages of the book. She wants to be on the road. And she's really had quite enough of, of just being in a castle all her life. So yeah. Go ahead. Seth I just wanted to pivot to talking a little bit about some of the battle scenes. They're, they're very, very fun and very different than, than like things in the book goes to conservative because those tend to be space battles, right, right battles with plasma arcs and stunners and things. And I did like that. At some point, when they head into a battle. Illvin doesn't have a weapon at some point. And he sees he sees an enemy writer coming towards him and he says, Ah, there's my sword. I'm gonna take it from that guy. Sarah Absolutely. Yes, one of the things I like about her battles here is terrain is important. There are rivers and hills and ridges and as opposed to in the space battles where it's all pretty much space. Terrain really matters. They these besiegers are attacking. The people in this castle they're attacking them on their own ground. Arhys the The Lord of the castle. He knows every inch of his territory. He is a good lord commander. He has studied his own terrain. He knows how to use his terrain effectively and it is a pleasure to read someone who not a military person herself, but at least knows the importance of that inland battles. It's huge. And, and I like that that is a factor here, you know, when they're writing to get away from this or that, and and that that's one of the there's a lot of specifics in her battle. Not just you know, swords clanged. Seth Yeah, exactly Sarah There's strategy, you know, if you read, you see that at least she has a lot of sense of what that kind of strategy would be. And, and I definitely liked that part of her. There's there there is a fair bit of fighting in this book. It starts out slow. But yeah, but there are definitely some military actions in this book. Seth So of course, the decisive battle is not a not sword play, right. It's the showdown between Ista and, I can't remember the name. Joan? Sarah Joen, yes. Seth Joen, Yes, yes. And it's such a great moment. It's it's the "Get away from her, you bitch moment from Aliens. Sarah Pretty much! Yeah, so um Princess Joen is the Roknari ruler, that's the other country that's been invading them. And she, she has a lot of power. And she's, she's kind of an interesting contrast to Ista, in the princess Joen is bound and determined to have satisfaction for a life of not being able to get away. She's now acquired these powers, partly just through force of will, but she's got them. And she's doing things to her own family, because she's so tired of being ignored. You know, she was the princess regent for a long time. And then her son attained majority. And she lost that Regency power. And she's so frustrated that she starts turning to darker powers. And so she's also kind of a bitter, twisted woman. Ista was pretty bitter. But this one is so, so angry at everything, that she can't let go of that. Women in this book are presented with different choices at different times that have to do with they haven't had agency, here's a chance, what are you going to do? It happens with Catillara, as well. And she is faced with a difficult challenge later in the book. And she makes one choice, Princess Joen is presented with a choice during, during near the end of the book, and she makes a certain choice. And Ista is presented with choices over and over again, and how she deals with those choices evolves over the book. And I found that a really interesting part of the book, she's definitely Bujold I think, is definitely making some commentary on agency and choices in this book, and how people who don't often have a lot of agency or don't, aren't perceived that way, how they react when they suddenly get choices they didn't know they might get well. Seth And you were talking about the people who kind of do things at the behest of the gods and the openness and there's also I feel like the vulnerability that is to shows when she's she she realizes, Oh, I can just eat this this demon you know, she's so I could just swallow it. I love that. Yeah. And and she does that, but then she she kind of has that moment where time sort of stops and she's interacting with the Bastard and says to him, I'm not sure that I'm doing this right. I'm not doing it perfectly. And he says, How fortunate for us that we thirst for glorious souls rather than faultless ones or we should be parched indeed. Sarah Right. Right. Seth And yeah, I think I think that's very cool. Sarah Yeah, getting back to the idea of perfection and not demanding it from from from earlier in the discussion. So yeah, There are some great characters in this story. And the way they have relations with each other is complex. And it develops during the story. I definitely enjoy the way the relationship develops between them Illvin and Ista in very small little bites, because they don't have a lot of time. There's a lot going on. There are no big long rides in the countryside for a picnic for them. No, no. They're trying to try to squeeze in, you know, a little bit of interest. But you know, that is part of part of what helps Ista stay rooted in this world. Because, you know, there's that guy's pretty cute, and he really wants me to stick around, you know, and I have not heard any hint that we're gonna get another book about the adventures of Ista and Illvin. Later in the book, you get some idea of what they're going to have. But I don't think we're actually going to get that book but it's pleasant to think about. Seth Yeah, because I feel like she's had interactions with the Mother. Yes. And the Bastard and then a very short one and with the Father. Yes, but nothing with the Daughter yet, right. Sarah So right her her daughter in the first book does not have direct interaction with the Daughter, but is a servant of the Daughter. And there is discussion about what that service, especially for a royalty figure or a you know, potential royalty figure. What a big responsibility. That is. Right? So, so yeah, the Hallowed hunt. Hallowed Hunt is the book that deals a lot with the Son. Seth Oh, yeah, I forgot about the Son. Sarah Yeah, yeah. Right. So yeah, the the, the different, you know, whether you're looking at them as different gods or different aspects of gods, in this book, characters, and in this world, characters are drawn to service to one god or another god, I think partly depending on their personalities. And what kind of what their position in life is, but also maybe just sort of affinities? Seth Yeah, yeah, we didn't even talk about Foix and Ferda Sarah Yeah, Foix and Ferda are the servants, right servants of the Daughter are sent with her sons with Ista on her pilgrimage to you know, her small pseudonymous pilgrimage where she's not going as the downwards You're right. She's going as she's just a minor noble woman going on. But But, of course, they sent an escort with her just not the big patent that yes, some people wanted her to go on. And so yeah, these two brothers, they have stuff going on too. One of them is really, really into horses. Can't stop talking about horses. And so he has some interest in Liss, the courier rider, and Foix accidentally picks up a demon on the way. And he he's kind of more of a strategist, he has a more senior position in the the order of the Daughter. And they have we were talking earlier about the humor, there's definitely some brother humor going on in that Seth Oh, big time. Sarah Yeah. And, and they're kind of all interested in Liss who's this bright, fun, young, you know, kind of patriotic may not be the right word, but she does love her royal courier job, and wants to be good at it and give service and so there's definitely some delightful characters in this story interacting with each other. Seth I definitely like to see further things because because one of the brothers has picked up a demon and essentially become a sorcerer, which right turns out isn't doesn't make him evil. Right. And, and will now have to kind of undergo training and right more or less be a servant of the Bastard because of the demon. Sarah Right, which is kind of not what he was planning because he was in the service of the daughter. Yeah, yeah, in this book, you can in this world. There are a couple of different ways to gain mastery over the demon and one is through years of study. And that's generally what the orders do. They years of study to understand how to make this work and to kind of develop the mental discipline. And then other people just have a lot of force of will. And some of them have a lot of force of will because they're angry, or because they're violently in love, or you know, or they have a lot of force a will because They're pretty good people. And here's this poor scared demon. You know? There's a lot of paths in this book. So I, I recommend it. Seth Yeah. Well I, we should probably wrap up at some point. But Goram is another interesting character because you find out that his soul is sort of torn. And when Ista restores it, he has this moment of realizing who he was before everything that happened to him, because he's become this, you know, friend and servant of , of Illvin Sarah Right, Illvin picked him up as a slave in a town. Seth Yeah. And he's freed him and he wanted to stay on. Sarah Right, right. And then he realizes, Oh, I used to be a real jerk, when he finally gets his memories back. And he's kind of ashamed of who he used to be. And kind of misses being simple Goram, the groom, and now now he's got a lot of his mental stuff back. And you know, maybe now he needs more responsibilities, but he kind of misses. Seth Yeah. And he kind of comments too, is too, right. I'm too old to really make a new start. And she says, you have more time than all these dead people do. Right? So get over yourself. It's very practical. Sarah Right, and Ista has a lot of Get over yourself isms to other people. She doesn't always say them out loud. But you know, she's, she's honed, she doesn't she, she's she she's had to deal a lot with courtly polite speech. And she's kind of done with that. Seth It kind of It almost reminds me of what I I'll tell my son sometimes, you know, when when we compete in some way, I'm like, nope, the old man strength wins that one. And, you know, he's four inches taller than me. He's extremely fit. And it boggles his mind how I can be stronger than him in some things. And I tell him, it's just, you live long enough in your body, you know, what your body can do. And, and so like, I know, when I can push myself to hold it 90% for as long as I need to. And it's just, it's just the kind of thing that comes with age, it's, you know, muscle memory kind of thing. And I feel like there's something here with with Ista as well, where it's just, it's the wisdom of having been through it. Sarah One of the things that she talks about is persistence on the gods are, in their own way amazed at physical reality and the persistence of human beings. In the previous book, there's a thing where I'm, Cazaril picks up a pebble after he's been through this big god experience. And he's like, wow, this pebble is amazing. It just lasts and lasts and lasts. And Ista realizes that one of the reason and the Bastard pretty much says as much later on, one of the reasons that gods are coming to her is she persists. She, she has some self destructive thoughts, but she chooses the road instead. And she keeps going on, even when she's tired and injured, and, you know, she's she's really good at focus on priorities, and at persisting. And the Bastard mentions to her later. She says, You didn't abandon me, and he says, I noticed you didn't abandon me. And that, that, you know, that kind of persistence, is I think, I mean, yes, there can be young people who just don't know any better and persist. Anyway. That's the kind of a luck. But I think, you know, enduring is something that that, you know, I mean, it may be partly survivor's bias. But, you know, older people have sometimes develop that kind of ability to persist. Yeah. Seth If they weren't tough, they wouldn't still be here. That's right. But let's go ahead and just move into into final thoughts on this one, I'll just say that, like I mentioned at the top, it's not necessarily the kind of book that I would be like, This is my kind of book. But I got to the end of it and was like, Okay, is there another one of these because I really liked the further adventures and I'm not sure I'll go back and pick up the Hallowed Hunt because I know it's hundreds of years earlier. Sarah It is kind of a prequel. There's there's stuff I like about that, but is it is in its own way. Also a tough read her other books with Penric, that are also in the Five gods world, this is a young man who picks up his own demon, and it has, he has a lot of adventures, and it's a lighter read, and most of those are shorts and novellas so you might enjoy dipping into into some of those Seth Yeah, maybe I'll do that. That'd be fun. But But I did enjoy this one. So I want to thank you for for picking it Sarah Yeah, I find this book very satisfying, there's a good word for it. There's a lot of developments in it that are very satisfying. And you have to work to get there Ista has to work to get there. And I found that satisfying in the book for sure. Like I've mentioned, I've read it several times, so And sometimes I'll just dip into one part or another. And, but, you know, reading it straight through again, was really a good experience. So, yeah. Seth All right. Well, Sarah, this was an absolute pleasure. It's always great talking to you. So thank you so much for doing this. Sarah Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the discussion. Yeah, Seth I'm sure we'll talk again. Bye.