Seth Hi there and welcome back to Hugo's There 2.0 and this is another Seth's Picks episode ah where in the recent past we did one of these episodes and it wasn't even science fiction. This time it is science fiction and furthermore it's an award winner kind of because the author here is a Nobel winning author. Seth And that author is Jose Saramago, and the novel is Blindness, which was published in 1995. So the novel was originally published in Portuguese, and so I had the perfect person in mind for ah for talking about this, not because he speaks Portuguese, but because he's doing a study of science fiction from around the world, and that is Andy Perry. Hi, Andy. Andy Hey Seth, how are you? Seth Good, good. And Andy and I actually got to meet in Scotland this year, which was, which was fun. Andy Yep. Seth He was one of the the chosen few who attended the Take Me To Your Reader live recording. Seth It it was an intimate, yeah, it was an intimate crowd. Andy Yeah, no, it was really good fun. Yeah. Seth um So how's it going with science fiction around the world? Andy Yeah. Seth Still, still plugging away. I think you were in the twenties with the countries covered. Andy Yeah, so I'm probably in the 30s now, and reading a lot more African science fiction, which has been really cool. Seth Nice. Andy um And that was the great thing about Worldcon. There was there so many panels and table talks from African authors. And and and their take on science fiction is is really quite different to um to Western stuff. Seth you have a You have a visitor behind you. Andy Can you hear my cat in the background? Yeah. yeah like If that gets too annoying, I'll just kick her out. Seth It's like, hey, let let me out that microphone. Andy But yeah, so yeah. Andy Yeah, I'm gonna kick her out. She's been in pain. She's just not gonna stop. Seth Did that donut around her neck, is it like the cone of shame keeping her from licking something? Andy Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what it is. Seth Okay, okay. Andy Cause she's got like a, so she's scratched her face and it's kind of gone a bit weird and she keeps scratching and scratching and scratching. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy So she gets the donut, which is the same as a cone of Shane, but slightly more comfortable for her. Seth Nice. Seth Yeah, yeah. I mean, definitely a world economy and the panels that you could get there were extremely diverse. I mean, so many different topics and I didn't get to go to the one about the the African science fiction. Andy Yeah, no, it it was great. And and yeah yeah um the best thing I went to was something on it was on the laws of space and how it impacts kind of hunter-gatherer tribes in in Africa. Seth Hmm. Andy And it was just called the laws of space. Seth Interesting. Andy So I thought this was going to be like, you know, the three laws of robotics and kind of more science fictiony kind of fictiony. And it wasn't. It was done by a lawyer who specializes in Seth So it was an international law kind of stuff. Andy Yeah, and and Space Law and how, you know, you no government can own a ah celestial body, but that doesn't include private companies. Seth But yeah, yeah. Seth Right. Yeah. Andy and And it was absolutely fascinating. Seth Right. Andy And I kind of sat there going, I'm in the wrong thing. I didn't want to come to this. But the the lady that hosted it was just brilliant. And it was it was fascinating. to Seth Nice. Andy and Seth There was some of the space law covered in A City on Mars, which was one of the related works, ah related related work nominees. Andy OK. Seth I did it when? I think it must have won. I know I voted for it. That's the only important thing. Andy Was that the novel? Seth ah It was nonfiction. It was by by the ah Saturday morning breakfast cereal wienersmiths. Andy Oh, okay. Seth Yeah, Zach and um We'll just say the wienersmiths because I don't remember both names and I don't want to uh, yeah Oh nice nice Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed that audiobook Um, let's see Andy Yeah, because I'm listening to some Desperate Glory at the moment on Audible. Which one, the no novel? Yeah. Hmm. Seth So talking about history with this book, this is one that I – did you not know about this until I sent you a ping about it? Andy Nope. Never heard of it. Never heard of Jose Saramanto either. Seth Jose. Jose, they pronounce – yeah. Andy You're saying, I say Jose, but that's because I'm doing Spanish rather than spanish Portuguese. Seth Yeah, in yeah and Portuguese, exactly. Andy Okay. Seth i i This was – I learned this week how to pronounce the name, so – and I'm probably still not getting it quite correct. Andy Okay. Good. Seth ah but um But yeah, they do they do pronounce the ah the J differently. Andy As a J. Seth um Yeah, yeah not not quite a J, it's like a J kind of, you know, you have a name like Joins, which is their they're equivalent with to Juan. Andy Okay. Good. Andy Yeah. Seth Yeah, I discovered this one and from the library, and um I think I saw a trailer for the movie when it came out. Andy Yup. Seth And I don't remember – I guess it must have come out in 2008, 2009, and looked up the movie and saw that it was based on a novel, and then saw that the novel was from a Nobel-winning author, and I thought, well. guys and I haven't read many Nobel-winning authors, and so I picked up the book. And I i almost quit it for for a reason, and we'll we'll talk about it, um but but ultimately got really sucked into it and really, really enjoyed it. And then I reread it about 10 years ago when it came by as a cheap book on the Nook. um and so and then And then this time I had it from Audible just because I thought that'd be an interesting way to take it in. It is a different experience, and we'll we'll talk about that. Seth as well I did say at the top that this is a science fiction novel, and technically you know it kind of kind of falls into the post-apocalypse, something like you know Day of the Triffids, where um you know people are struck blind by the astronomical events or whatever, and then and then the plot happens. Andy Yeah. Seth right um But the rest of the plot isn't very science fiction. It's it's really just about the sociology of the whole thing. Andy Yeah. Yeah. This is borderline science fiction. Seth Yeah, yeah, and it definitely falls into that literary science fiction. Andy Yeah. Seth right Andy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seth And yeah and you know I looked up Saramago's work, and he he definitely has stuff that straddles the line between fantasy and magical realism. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah. Seth He has one, for instance – I can't remember – Death with Interruptions, I think, is the the novel, where essentially death is like, okay, um i' i'm I'm quitting my job. Nobody gets to die. Seth um and ah And so you know that's that's definitely not just straight fiction, right? There's there's a fantasy element to it. Andy Yeah, no yeah quite a few of the international books have read recently they've all been kind of post apocalyptic. I was like is that is that science fiction. It's just you know a wars happened. Seth Yeah, yeah. Andy You know, but what's what's why is that science fiction. and so Seth um So let's let's let's talk about just like sort of overall impressions on this and then and then we'll just kind of dive right into the the discussion because I want to, you know, ah I definitely recommend the book with with some caveats, um trigger warnings and and that kind of stuff because there's some pretty rough content in it. Andy Yeah. Oh, yeah. Seth um there's there's There's violence, there's sexual violence, and it does not really flinch away from some of that stuff. Andy Yeah. Seth ah What did you think? Andy Yeah, I mean, it was dark. um and But I like, I quite like dark stuff. Seth Yeah. Andy I don't like really graphic stuff. And I think this was on the, you know, the more graphic side of things, which doesn't appeal to me. So it wasn't Seth Yeah. Andy It wasn't a comfortable read. It was yeah, it's not it's not you know, I like quite I like aliens and spaceships and laser fights and those kind of things. Seth Yeah. Seth Yeah. Andy That's why I like science fiction. So reading this was challenged me personally, and it's a book I wouldn't have naturally picked up. So, you know, you've expanded my Seth yeah Andy my book vocabulary so yeah but yeah it's dark but i really like the the way everything's really well described you know he's clearly uh you know obviously if he's warden nobel prize he's a great writer and but yeah the content itself was was challenging yeah Seth Right. Seth Yeah, yeah and you know when you talk about like reading dark things that are about alien invasions and that kind of stuff, right there's an enemy that that you can focus against there. right Where in this, the enemy is sort of human nature um and and the way we don't care for the marginalized and and the you know the the way we can be so indifferent. Andy Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Seth um because And and let's let's talk just ah you know briefly about the the plot of the book. Andy yeah Seth There's essentially an outbreak. it's it's sort of ah It's almost a pandemic novel. I can't remember if we mentioned it in the in that episode. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth um But there's this outbreak of what they call the white sickness because people go blind, but they don't see dark. They describe it as a thick fog or a mist. Seth right um And it just starts with one guy driving his car and all of a sudden he goes blind. and then everyone kind of who he touches ah becomes blind and it kind of focuses around this doctor's office where he goes to the eye doctor and then everyone in that office ends up going blind as well. Seth um And then bad things happen, you know, because ah the government overreacts and starts interning people in essentially camps. You know, they put them in an old asylum. Seth They put them in old arenas and and things like that. And then they just sort of throw them to the wolves um and and say, look, if anything bad happens, you deal with it. We'll provide some food, but we're not goingnna we're not going to come in there for any reason. Andy ye Andy No, they they're kind of protecting them. And it's got a military ran. So yeah, it was quite it was really um oppressive. You know, you're kind of you've gone blind, you're quarantined. Seth yeah Andy And that's it when yeah, we're just going to throw food over a fence. Seth Right. Right. And so then when things like, you know, the plumbing starts to break down, they're not going to come in and fix anything. And so then, you know. Seth Good. Andy thanks Seth Ah, cup of tea. Andy sorry yeah got Seth Nice. Seth um And. um Let's see. Andy sorry Seth Yeah, yeah, no, it's fine. um Seth Yeah, like it's the the place where the the main characters are are interned. And I want to talk about the characters, because it's one of the interesting things about the style of the novel. um They're interned in this old abandoned asylum, which you know is is unfortunate. Seth And it's it's not really equipped to to handle the number of people that get put there. Andy Sorry. Yeah. Seth um And then you know we this is where the sociology put part comes in, where there's more than one ward in here. And it happens that one of the wards is closer to where the food is delivered. And if they decide, you know what, we're not going to share the food. The government isn't going to step in and they have to handle it themselves. Andy Yeah, and that was it. It was kind of, you know, very much Lord of the Flies and reverted very quickly to, you know, self-interest and tribalism and all those things. Seth Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Andy And it was fascinating to read. And some of it you kind of go, this is really, you know, it's difficult to to read and you feel that people are just horrible. Seth Mhm. Andy But then some of it was so unbelievable, you know, that you I couldn't relate. I couldn't think this. I couldn't see how people would go that bad and that depraved that quickly. Seth Yeah. Andy So which made it slightly easier because then it was quite clearly fiction. It wasn't it it felt less real. Seth Mhm. Andy So which helped made it made it easier to read because it was less real and obviously with all the blindness and the white blindness. Seth Yeah. Seth Mhm. Andy and Yeah. took Took it one step away from reality. Seth Yeah, I see. See, say I'm not sure that I agree that it and didn't feel real um because because I can see this kind of thing happening, right? Where where and there was a joke from a comedian who was talking about um apocalypse pre and preppers, you know, people who are like, you know, have big closets full of food and stuff. Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seth And and the guy said, all you're doing is collecting stuff for someone stronger. Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seth and more ruthless, right? If if if somebody comes along and the and they're, you know, they're not about humanity as a whole surviving, they're about themselves surviving, and they come and take your stuff, then what are you going to do? Andy Yeah. Andy yeah Seth Yeah. Seth Let's see. um Let's talk about the style of the novel, and and and this is what I wanted to talk about. I highly recommend, if you're going to read this book, reading it in print. However, based on what I describe, you may decide, no, I'll go Adhio, because Asaramago has a style, which I understand is in several of his novels. I wondered if it was unique to this one, but I've i've looked it up and it seems to be... oh the thing he does, where he very much limits punctuation and line breaks, quotation marks. Andy Mm. Seth um And so there's just this breathless quality to the way it it goes by, because you don't even have periods at the end of sentences sometimes, it's just a comma, and then it keeps on going. Seth um And characters will be talking, and it's just offset with a comma, and that's all. There's no quotation marks, there's nothing, nothing to kind of call out that there's dialogue going on. And so it requires a level of attention that I think some people are like, I'm not, I'm not ready for that. Um, and so if you're not ready for that, i I'd say, well, okay, the audio will, will serve you better because you're going to miss that, but you're also missing to my mind that the level of immersion that you get where it pulls you into the plight of these people. Andy Yeah, I'd say because I i read probably 50-50. Seth Hmm. Andy I read most of the book on in print and then listened to a lot of it on Audible as well. But when I was reading in print, you know, I couldn't just read for 10 minutes and then put it down like a chapter before bed or a few pages before bed or something like that. Andy You had to sit there and and commit a good half an hour to an hour to sit and read it to get into the just the way it's written. Seth yeah Andy Like you said, it it's Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy It's a challenge. Physically, it's a challenging read. Seth Yeah. Andy um But once you get into the the pace and the and the way he writes, it's it's great. And it's it really draws you in and is really immersive. Seth yeah Andy And that was, you know, clearly his he craft, you know, his crafting of ah physical writing is is brilliant. Seth Yeah. Andy It's it's yeah, it's great. Seth Yeah. Yeah. um you know From this part forward, I'm just going to say we're going to be in spoilers. um And and we'll just we'll start talking about more of the specifics of the plot. Andy Yeah, they ask yeah. Seth um i you know I like these conversations to not be super, super structured just because you know this is a book that that I've really enjoyed. And and I just want to want to talk about it with with Andy. Seth um One of the other interesting things is that the characters, um there are no named characters in the novel. So so it does not pass the Bechdel test. Andy Yeah, because I remember when I yeah, when I first started reading it, I think I was in like the first chapter, I'd like message you and said, like, no one's got a name yet. And you were like, don't expect any names. Seth Yes. Andy Okay. And that was really and that that also find it found it I found it hard. to relate to the character that was the doctor or the lady with the glasses. Seth Yeah. Andy And it was just like, and ah but again, you eventually you break that barrier and you just go, all right, that's the lady in the glasses. And it's fine. Seth Right, right. That's the boy boy with the squint and the and the old man with the eyepatch, right? Andy that She's just described as. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Seth um And it's fascinating, too, in ah in a book about blindness, that so many of the character, you know, not names, but the way the characters are described are something physical, right? Seth Something visual, right? Andy Yeah. Seth The girl with the dark glasses, right? Andy Yeah. Seth um And then, you know, there there are, of course, like the blind hoodlums. That's what they call the other ward that won't share the food. Andy Yeah, yeah. Seth um And And yeah you know, the doctor and the doctor's wife and the first blind man and first blind man's wife and the car thief. And, um and and yeah, it's really ah fascinating. Andy Yeah, yeah. Seth And then um even toward the end, when a dog comes in, right, the dog doesn't get a name. It's the dog of tears, right? Andy No. And I think that was the only thing one of the things I didn't like about the book is when they said, Oh, blind people don't have names. You know, because I think there was one point where someone said, Oh, what's your name? And then they made the right and they kind of almost pointed out that blind people don't have names in this in this and this book. Andy And I think that was unnecessary. I think if you could have quite happy left that out, and drawn your own conclusion to that, and never have never had to comment on that conversation when someone goes, Oh, what's your name? Seth Yeah. Seth Yeah. Yeah. and and Yeah. Andy Because that would have happened all the time. Seth Exactly. Andy You know, that you know, not been the first thing you do with someone new comes in, you're like, Hey, or who are you? Seth Yeah. Andy And that never happened on any of the first meetings apart from once. And then they kind of made this comment about blind people not having names. So it was just like, leave that out. Seth Yeah, yeah, I mean, it it it does kind of set you back at one remove because you you think in conversations, right, people would need a way to refer to each other. Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seth And, and um and yeah, that doesn't that doesn't really happen here. And it's, it's, it's part of the style. And I still I still really appreciate it. It's, it's, it's interesting. Andy Yeah, it's different and yeah. Yeah, that's why I'm glad I read the book because there's so many different things about this book that I've never come across in, you know, in any other book, which is great. Seth But so yeah, yeah. Seth And so you have um you know the the lack of the character names and then the lack of the punctuation in the novel. And so like you lots of times you're like, I'm pretty sure I know who's talking, but I'm not totally sure. Seth And and to me that was like, would that be what it's like? Andy Yeah. Seth Or do you like would you learn people's voices well enough so that you would know? um and And I'm not sure. And I'm not sure it was going for that either. Andy no ah No, no, and I don't know. i've now I've not done any research into, you know, written any, paper read any papers on him and this book, you know, any, so I've just read it as a book and not done any background into it. Seth Yeah, there is a direct sequel to the to this novel called seeing and I haven't I haven't watched it yet. I haven't read it yet. Andy Oh, okay. Seth um So um Yeah Andy Oh, that'd be interesting. Yeah. Especially as, you know, you know, the last line of the, but well, almost, is it the last line of the book, but almost the the last part of the book. Seth yeah, yeah yeah Andy ah I've got the book in front of me. Was it the last line? No, it's not the last line, but you know, that last twist. Seth Yeah, one of the quotes that I liked um early on where the the doctor, you know, he's fascinated by the fact that he he sees this patient and he's like, well, there's no there's no lesions. Seth There's no obvious reason for you to be blind. um and And so he's approaching this from a very medical standpoint. Andy Hmm. Seth And then the next day he goes blind, right? And then he starts contacting the health authorities. Andy Yeah. Seth And, you know, he he gets basically stuck talking to a mid-level bureaucrat somewhere who's not really interested in helping him um and doesn't doesn't doesn't really care. And the the doctor says, this is the stuff we're made of, half indifference and half malice. Seth And and that that is very much describes the life in the wards, right, because the indifference is on the part of the government and then the malice is on the part of the other, ah the the blind hoodlums. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth Um, let's see. Seth but What else do you want to talk about? Andy Um, that I suppose we could go into the, the more triggering stuff, the gory side of things. Seth Yeah. Andy And yeah, my issues with that. Seth Yeah, yeah, because at some point, the the blind hoodlums, the the people in the Nine Old Ward Three, I think it was, the the food is being dropped near where they are. Andy yeah yeah no no and this is what this is like you know like if you're totally blind you're not going to worry about having someone else's watch or someone else's cash and and so so the um Seth And so they decide, you know what, we're going to keep the food. If you want the food, you have to buy it. And so they shake everybody down for all their possessions. Not that possessions mean anything. um Seth Right. Andy The first guy to go is blind's wife could still see, you know. Seth ah No, not the first guy, the doctor's wife. Andy Oh yeah, of course, yeah, it was the doctor's wife. So the doctor's wife could still see, but she was pretending to be blind to get into the asylum with all the other blind people and so she could stay with her husband. Seth Yeah. Andy um you know, why she was not just collecting it all up and just hiding it. It's, you know, it's must be very easy to hide something from someone who's blind or a group of people that are totally blind. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy And so that bit for me just seemed unrealistic or I couldn't empathize with that. I was just like, no, that wouldn't happen. No. Andy and and And because this book is written so realistically, you kind of plot holes like that really are not a plot hole, but Seth Sure. Andy something that I couldn't find realistic. I was like, no, no, no, no, that wouldn't happen. Seth Yeah, yeah. And I mean, she didn't reveal the fact that she could see for and for a long, long time until Deep in the novel, right? Andy Yeah, yeah and yeah, even I think that's when she was outside. Seth um Andy I think it was back when they went back to her home. Seth i think it I think it was earlier than that because it was i think i think it was essentially when they had to go to war. Andy Okay. Seth um But she did she did hide one thing, if you recall. Andy Yeah, of course. Yeah. Seth she Remember, she hid the scissors. Andy She had the scissors. Seth um yeah Not that they were necessarily a valuable. and And the interesting thing, too, is on the side of the blind hoodlums. They have somebody in their ward who was born blind. Andy Yes. Yeah. Seth And and so he has an advantage of being of of a comfort level with with being blind and um tools, for instance, I think I think it said um and tools, for instance, like I think it said he was an accountant and he had some kind of um some way to sort of punch Braille figures in. Andy Yeah. Andy Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Seth um And so he was the one who was accounting for all the ah the possessions that people were bringing. Andy He was making lists and. Andy Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think he had a stick as well. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah, he had a cane, right? Andy So he, you know, he could not sure if he disappeared. Seth Yeah. And, and so then, you know, that's where it gets to the, they're like, Hey, bring us all your stuff and then we'll decide if you deserve food. And then later on, they're like, well, you don't have any possessions left back. So now we want your women. Seth And, and that's where it gets really, really rough. Um, because I, and, and I tend to put myself into this and I think, no, we're not, we're not doing this. Andy Are you back? Seth Okay. Andy He seemed to have frozen. Seth This is the time we fight. Seth Andy, are you there? Andy but you can Yeah, I can see you again. Seth Lost you for a minute. Andy Yeah, I don't know when i don't know when that froze or anything. Seth All right, do you remember what we were talking about? Andy ah The accountant with the stick. Seth Okay, okay. All right, so i'll i'll I'll kind of back up on that. So yeah, that he he basically accounts for all the possessions that they have, and then then the the blind hoodlums say, okay, well, we've given you you know all the food you deserve for the stuff you brought us, and now you need to bring us something else. You need to bring us your women. Seth And this is where it gets really rough. Andy the Yeah. Seth and And I put myself into the situation and I think, no, um you know this is this is not happening. And um it's interesting because the the women get a fair amount of agency, right, where essentially they decide, yes, we're going to go. Seth um And it's quite emasculating to the men who are left behind. um Andy Yeah, that was a really, yeah, strange. Again, another really quite disturbing thought pattern that went through and that those scenes, that the men were left where their women had gone. Seth Yeah. Andy um Yeah. Seth and And, and you know, one one of the women is very badly mistreated and ends up dying. um And the the movie actually does a good job of, I'm not, I won't say a good job, but it, it emphasizes that part a little better. Seth There's some change to the wording um that that I thought were really effective. And we can talk about the movie. Andy Yeah. Seth if Have you watched it? Andy Yeah, I did. Yeah, because I couldn't remember if we're doing this for Hugo's there or take me to your reader. Seth Okay. Andy So I thought I'll watch the movie just in case. Seth Right. Andy And yeah, and yeah, it was good to it was good to what you know, and it was interesting to watch the movie as well. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah. um Seth Yeah, it's quite a straight adaptation as well. Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seth um But there's there's the one of the blind hoodlums comes over and says, you know, there's one lady who was who was here the other night who was kind of a dead fish. Don't bring her this time. Andy Yeah. Seth n And that's that's when the thieve doctor's wife says, well, she died. Andy Yeah. Seth That's not really a big deal. She was kind of a dead fish. Andy Hmm. Seth um and and that's ah Yeah. And you can you can see on the face of the ah the blind accountant, then he's like, oh crap, we might have screwed something up here. um and And yeah, you know like you like you say, right the how realistic is this that that entire ward would go along with it? Andy Yeah. Seth um the And on the other hand, like you know we see in politics, right so what a demagogue a demagogue ah arises and is able to sway people over to their side and make them do things that you wouldn't think people would do. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth um you know i Andy Maybe that's self preservation that we're trying to think that we wouldn't be like this in those scenarios that were, you know, that were better than, than the people in the book. Seth Yeah, yeah. Seth Yeah, and it's worth mentioning that the that the main hoodlum – I can't remember what – if he ever got a name. um All right, a label anyway. Andy No, I can't remember. Yeah. Seth um You'd think I would know. I've read it three times, but um he had a firearm, right? Andy Yeah. Seth and and And that's one of those things where even after – even when the – Andy Yes, yeah. Seth the doctor goes over to deliver their their goods, right? Andy Oh, I think you've gone again. Seth and And tries to argue, no, no, no, you owe us the proper amount of food um and gets threatened with the gun. Andy Fire on. Seth And then he regrets that he didn't try to take the gun away. Seth Last year again. Andy Yeah, we're back. Seth Still having some trouble, huh? Andy Yeah, it went just as you were talking about the firearm. That's when it seemed to freeze up. Seth Yeah. um And so, the yeah, the the guy has a firearm and he has evidently extra bullets for it. And that's that's one of the things where when the doctor goes over when they're um delivering all their ah worldly goods to them um and argues for two to receive more food than they're allotting them. Andy Hmm. Seth um And he gets threatened with with the gun and he regrets when he gets back that, you know, I shouldn't have tried to take it away from him. But it's the kind of thing where in the moment, your survival instinct kicks in and and you're not thinking of anyone but yourself. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah, I think that that's one of my favorite points in the book as well. I think when there's a conflict and they start shooting wildly and the doctor's wife, you know, starts, you know, raising hell and giving him lots of abuse and he goes, I'll remember your voice. Seth Yeah. Andy And she says, I'll remember your face. Seth Yes. Andy I was just like, Seth And he's like, what? What? Andy And it was just, yeah, and everyone's kind of like, hey? And it was like, you know, she didn't reveal that she could see, but yeah, it was just, it it sowed the seeds of doubt and was, yeah, I thought that was a very clever part of the book and like, then you know, really enjoyed that because it it showed that kind of almost like, you know, stepping up and, you know, taking control and becoming powerful and all those things. Seth Yeah. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy I thought that was a real, you know, key change point for the, for that ward. Seth Yeah, yeah. And you know, she had, she had had that role of taking care of everyone already, right? Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seth Even to the point where, like her husband finds his way to the the the bed of the the woman with dark glasses, right? The girl with dark glasses, and they they sleep together and, you know, she sees it and and she just is very compassionate about the whole thing, um which I thought was interesting. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah. Strange, but yes. Seth Yeah, yeah. Andy I know the weird part of the story, but yeah, it yeah it happened. Seth Mm hmm. Seth Yeah. um And I think the movie does actually talk about this a little bit because the the the doctor is is played by Mark Ruffalo and you know he's basically saying, look, I'm not a man anymore. right like like i'm ah but im You deal with me like a child, right? Seth You're, you're, you're wiping my backside and, you know, and trimming my in shaving for me and, you know, you know, all these things and it's like, you know, can't live like this. Andy Yeah. Seth Um, and so I don't know if that led to that, that situation, but, but I was, I was impressed with how compassionate she was toward both of them about that. Andy Yeah. And again, she yeah she had choices. She could leave, she could you know, abandon them all if she chose. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy So yes she had she had made that definite choice to stay and take on that role of guide and mother and protector. Seth Yeah. Seth Right. Seth Yeah, and it was rough, too, because she it says several times she wished that she could not see she she wished that she would lose her sight so she wouldn't have to see what she saw. Andy Okay. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth um Because because, you know, yeah, dead bodies and excrement everywhere. Andy She did wish for that. Seth And yeah, you know, it's tough. Andy Yeah. Seth um i I like the moment where she realizes she's forgotten to wind her watch. And so, you know, time time for her has ceased to be a thing. Andy Yes. Yeah, yeah. Seth Um, and then, and then of course she gets to, she gets to wind it again when the, when the old man with the eye patch comes in and he has a radial and you know, at the tone, it will be four o'clock winding her watch. Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. She wasn't sure if it was AM or PM. Seth Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But yeah. Andy Yeah, no, it was good. Yeah, it was really nice. Yeah. Moments of quite, you know, lightness in the in the whole book. But I just think the whole concept of going white blind was just fascinating. Andy that really that was I think that was the most science fiction part of the entire book, is that when you go blind, it's so it's a whiteness rather than a darkness. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Seth Mm hmm. Andy And I was just thinking like how how different and terrifying that would be. Seth Yeah. Andy you know Because when you close your eyes, you know what it's like. you know It's black and it's dark. Seth Mm hmm. Andy But when something's totally white, that's really alien, that's really you know something that you can't you're very you know you're very rare to have that kind of experience you know unless you know you you know unless you're getting whited out in you know epic snow storms and things like that yeah Seth Yeah, yeah. Seth Right. Yeah. Yeah. I've experienced that, and but you know, I could still see my hands and and things. It's just, I couldn't see any features. i it It happens when you, if you go skiing at all, you eventually will find yourself in in that kind of situation. You're like, well, I hope there's no big dips in this and landscape because I can't see any of the topography. um But you just go really slowly, try and get out of the cloud bank. Seth um Let's see. Andy So then I guess that the the book progresses to them being abandoned, you know, and that the, you know, they realize that the soldiers are no longer looking after them, no longer providing food. Seth Yeah. Seth Right, to the extent that they were ever providing anything, right because you you have the you have the situation with the car thief, right where hes he's kind of our most perfidious person who's in the ward with the good guys, um where where he took advantage of the first blind man, stole his car. Andy So that they, yeah. Andy Yeah. Seth um But he he gets his due punishment by by also going blind. Andy Hmm. Seth um and And the funny thing is, like it was you want to believe that it was a kind impulse, where he was just trying to help this guy out, and then he just decided to steal the car. Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seth And it kind of positions it that way. Andy Yeah, it was kind of more, um, coming to the word spur of the moment, you know, it was just kind of like opportunistic, you know, to steal the car. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Taking advantage. Andy Yeah. yeah But then it turns out that he was a professional car thief. Seth Yeah. Seth Right, right, right. yeah And not not a good man, right? Because then when when I think they all lined up at some point um to try and make a procession down to pick up the food, and yeah he found himself next to the the girl with dark glasses who I think is a sex worker or an escort. Andy Yeah. Yes, she was. Yeah. Seth Yeah. Andy Yeah. Seth and and you know um He discovers that she's curvy and he likes it. And she does not like his advances and ah and and delivers a ah blow to him that gets infected. Andy yeah Andy Yeah. Seth I think she has heels on or something and and stomps on his foot. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And ultimately, yeah. Seth Yeah. Andy Yeah. That ultimately kills him. Seth It ultimately kills him, right? Yeah, and and that's that's where the indifference of the ah the government authorities comes in, right? Andy Yeah. Seth Because you hear just some antibiotics, and and he's fine, right? Andy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seth and And he does kind of work his way around to apologizing, right? and the and the And the girl with dark glasses is Andy yeah no Oh yeah. Seth not thrilled that she's killed this man. she That was not what she was trying to do. um but But just the the way things have gone, that's that's the reality that they're in. um And he ends up, I think, surprising a soldier and getting shot. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seth um Andy Yeah, and the and the the woman, when the dark glasses, ends up kind of looking after the young lad, the boy, the squint, as well. Seth Right. Andy And, you know, it becomes, you know, his foster mum, essentially. Seth Yeah, more or less, and and and you know she she gives up a lot of her food so so that he won't complain. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah. but Seth um That's his main role, is to complain and ask for his mummy. Andy Yeah. Seth um Andy But yeah, there's kind of, everyone has like redemption stories. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah, really in a lot of ways. And and you know, the the hero is definitely the the doctor's wife, right? She's the one who takes care of them. Andy Yeah. Seth She's the one who, um you know, ends up taking out the bad guy. Andy Yeah, that was a brutal scene, a brutal three pages in the book and in the film as well. Seth um Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy It was, yeah, yeah, it was good. It was good scenes, but yeah, tough, yeah. Seth Yeah, tough though, yeah. um Andy And the thing is I'd picture, when I read the book, I'd picture the scissors very differently. Seth and and Andy So, you know, like scissors, you don't, you only see the scissors that they used in the movie for hairdressing. So they're really ship long and pointy and purely metallicical metallic. Seth Yeah. yeah Andy I was thinking of more of like paper scissors, you know, with big plastic handles. Seth Right. Andy And so when I saw them in the film, I was just like, oh, that's a weapon. Seth Yeah. Okay. Those are deadly. Yeah. Andy Yeah, that's not just a, yeah. Seth Yeah. Yeah, very much. Andy Yeah. Seth um and And then she's the one who, you know, when essentially, like you said, right, eventually, they're entirely abandoned, because the rest of the world has gone to hell. And, um you know, all the soldiers have gone blind. Andy yeah Seth And, um and and there there, there was the ah the blind are dead, the dead are blind, you know, the thing that that happens where there's the like the head of the soldiers who's so who's basically saying, and look, step out here, we'll we'll shoot you and and that'll solve the problem. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth and And then he goes blind himself and and just offs himself. i Like, well, he was consistent in his convictions. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, the kind of, you know, because I don't, this book must be, must pre, yeah, obviously it predates the ah COVID pandemic, but you start drawing parallels. Seth Yeah, 1995. Yeah. Mm hmm. Andy You know, this could have happened. This could, you know, you know, in certain places, you know, we were all quarantined and we were all afraid for our lives and people were panic buying and becoming selfish. Seth Right. Andy So you can see, Um, parallel. So obviously it wasn't as dramatic, but yeah, it was, it's tough. Seth Yeah. Seth Yeah, and wanting to find someone to blame as well, right? Because because you know when when the at at some point, the first blind man and the car thief realized they're in the same ward. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth And you know they're both blaming each other. Andy Yeah. Seth you know Well, you stole my car. Well, you made me blind. um Andy Yeah. It doesn't help. Seth No, yeah, it doesn't get anyone anywhere. um and And yeah, those kind of those kind of arguments just aren't aren't fruitful. Andy Yeah. Andy yeah Seth um so So yeah, eventually they're abandoned because because the all the soldiers have gone blind. The government has essentially fallen. And and this is where like the the protests from the blind community were about, you know, would everything really go to hell for this? And I feel like people don't understand how fragile society is. Seth and and things can push us over the edge and and and you know a pandemic can cause all kinds of upheaval. um And something like this that where all of a sudden all the tools for for society are built around being sighted. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth And when all of a sudden everyone no one's sighted anymore, yeah, things you know electrical grids would go down and plumbing would would cease to function. Andy and Yeah. Yeah. Seth there you know There's more automation now, um but I feel like it'd have to be very swift action to to safeguard anything. And I think the pandemic showed us that swift action is not something that we're really suited to. Andy No. No, and i mean obviously we couldn't set up for everyone going blind. no no one's No one's got that plan. Seth Yeah. Seth Right, right. Andy Yeah. Despite having read this book and... Seth Oh, somebody probably does, but some crackpot somewhere does. Seth um Andy Yeah. Seth But yeah, so they they venture out into the city looking for a place to stay, right? And and this is where you you have the the hope of the the girl with the dark glasses that her parents are still alive, right? Seth And and and they they make their way back to to her place and find the the woman who's developed a taste for raw meat and is ah is eating the chickens and and rabbits in the back garden. Andy Yeah. Yes, yeah, the chicken lady. Seth um Andy Yeah, but they brought the dog. And that's kind of... Seth Yes, yep, yes, the dog of tears availed himself of one of the chickens. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Seth um ah but the And the the doctor's wife is able to find in a store that there's a, you know, a door to a store room that the ah folks have not found, right? Andy Yeah, yeah. Seth Which I found a little surprising, um unless there was some kind of lock on it. um Because you'd think somebody would have gone around the perimeter and gone, oh, there's a doorknob here. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah, yeah. Seth um um Although it does show that also after she finds that place, after she finds that storeroom and and and comes out with food, they do find it, and then a bunch of people fall down to their deaths. Andy yeah Yeah, I couldn't ah couldn't visualize in the book what was happening those at that point. And I think even in the the movie, was there a fire? Andy I think in the book of the movie, there was a fire in the in the store and it ended up killing lots and lots of people. And she felt terrible for it because she had essentially opened the door. Seth Oh, okay. Andy The the blind hordes had gone in there and then either fallen or burnt to their deaths. Seth Right. Seth Mm hmm. Andy Um, so she had again, that, uh, you know, guilt of potentially killing lots of people. Seth Yeah. Seth Yeah. I mean, there was definitely a fire in the ward, right? In in the asylum. um that Yeah. Andy ah Okay. Um, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Maybe that's what I'm confusing things with them. Seth Yeah. I haven't seen the film in a number of years, so I'm not sure. Andy Yeah. Seth um i didn't I didn't rewatch it because because we weren't doing Take Me to Your Reader, but I thought we'd talk briefly about the film anyway. Andy yeah Yeah, i just want I think I finished the book and then watched the film, you know, almost my within a week of each other. Seth Yeah, that's what I did back in 2009. Andy So so's there's a lot of there a lot of crossover. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, and and being a pretty straight adaptation, it's, you know, there's there's not a lot of um unique things to the movie that don't exist in the book. Andy No, no, no. Yeah, it's yeah it's it's really faithful. Seth Yeah. I think the the movie Yada Yada is a little bit about the some of the power infrastructure and plumbing um and that that kind of stuff, but where the book seems to be like, you know, people are essentially waiting for it to rain in order to to be able to go out and get fresh water to wash and that kind of stuff. Andy Yeah. Andy Hmm. Seth And and those are lovely scenes actually in the in the book where there it talks about them ah going out and helping each other wash um in in in the downpour. Andy Yeah. Andy Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the, uh, the guy with the eye patch having a bath. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah, cold bath, but still a bath. Yeah, and someone helping him and he's not sure who. Andy Yeah. Seth um Yeah. Andy Yes. Seth um And, and there's there's that kind of lovely relationship that goes between him, you know, he's he's called the old man with the black eye, or with the eye patch, right? Andy yeah Seth And the girl with the dark glasses. And you know that there's there's quite a difference in their ages, but they they sort of bond together. Andy Yeah. Andy Yes. Seth um And and you know he realizes that, well, if we ever get our sight back, she's going to see that I'm an old wrinkly man and isn't going to want to be with me. um Yeah. Andy Yeah, but they did have that conversation and yeah, and and she was like, yeah, that's fine. Seth Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, blind dating, right? Andy Yeah. Seth So yes, Andy That should be the sequel. Seth um the see what else did I want to talk about? Seth Yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't have a ton of notes just because I ah kind of just jotted down a few things. Andy No. Well, I guess the only the last thing is the is the final thing where they start getting the site back. Seth Right. Andy Yeah. And that's, you know, everyone's, you know, because he was patient zero, he gets his site back first. So so the white sickness or the blindness, it has a finite time. Seth Right. Andy and i'm I couldn't work out how what the timeline of the whole book was, whether it was all in a week or all in a month. Seth Yeah. Seth Hmm. Andy But, you know, I'd say it was probably a month or maybe less. Seth Yeah, I picked I pictured longer than that. um and Just because and I guess I guess when you think about the fact that they started when they started um losing out on the food, you know, i I had remembered that happening much earlier. Andy Okay. Seth But they're in the wards for quite a while before the the blind hoodlums start to assert themselves. Andy Yeah. Okay. Seth um So yeah, I pictured it over the course of of a number of months, but so but I could be wrong. Andy Okay. Yeah, it doesn't. Just depends how quickly you think society would degrade. Seth Right, right. if you what What is the curve? What does the curve look like for the the infection rate? Andy Yeah. Seth um because Because essentially it it it presents that it's a virus, right? Andy Yeah. Andy yeah Seth um or Or some kind of infection. Andy But they never, you know, they couldn't, they never worked out why, whether it was just looking at somebody or touching somebody. Seth Right, right. Was it was it transmitted visually that that they do talk about that, right? Andy Yeah. yeah They did talk about no, but it's it's science fiction. Seth Which doesn't make any sense. Seth Right, right, right. um And so, you know, you you kind of wonder, if you know if the doctor's wife assumed that she was one of the ones who was immune. Seth right She was she was like one of the people who ah would get COVID and never have any symptoms. Andy Yeah. Seth right um and You'd think there would be there would be some rate of that. right and and You never do get in this book. Andy yeah Seth The book is not at all interested in talking about the situation in the rest of the world. Andy No. Seth um because you you would think that if this was happening in Lisbon, ah you know that perhaps folks in Spain would be like, hey, maybe we should help them out. Seth you know and you know The rest of the world would would help out. Andy Yeah. Seth But it it could also be the kind of thing where it was everywhere. and and um Because the the first blind man was a businessman, so it's possible he had flown recently and you know he was just patient zero in Portugal or wherever. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seth It does not say what city they're in or what country. Andy No, or what country, but I don't think. I can't remember. I can't remember any references to countries or... Seth Yeah, I think, I think at some point, there's like a a ministry of something that is mentioned. And so I'm like, okay, this is not the United States. Andy Yeah. Seth um Because we we don't use those terms, except for, you know, churches, which I did want to talk about churches as well, because at some point, they take shelter in a church. And someone has gone and blind and put ah blindfolds on all the images. Andy Yeah. Andy Yes, yeah. Seth um Andy Well, it wasn't... Yeah. Yeah, because they're saying that the priest may have done this or yeah, that was an odd scene. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy Um, and I wasn't sure if there was, um, I couldn't think of any religious significance to blindfolded imagery and. Seth I mean, i i i would to me, I just looked at it as a religious person i looked at it as a symbol of the loss of faith. right where where you know in When you see sicknesses happening, right this is it can be hard to square with an omnipotent, but all benevolent God. Andy Okay. Andy Yeah. Seth right but Well, why does this happen then? Andy Yeah. Seth And it's it's one of the the oldest questions, right? Andy Yeah. Seth for for People who are religious or non-religious, right? Andy Hmm. Seth And and so yeah, I just took it as there's more or less that kind of thing where it was Someone was losing their faith Yeah, yeah really oh interesting there's a there's a blindness aspect to that as well, right? Andy So not yeah okay. So it's all like Saul, Paul, Damascus, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Andy Yeah, that's yeah that year all the scales falling from his eyes. Seth Yeah Mm-hmm. Andy and Yeah, I wasn't sure. Seth Yeah hmm Andy but so but yeah But the kind of the visual of putting blindfolds or or covering the eyes of the you know the pictures and the saints was, yeah. Seth Mm hmm. Andy there was But then I guess, you know obviously Portugal must be a big Catholic country. Seth Yeah, I think so. Andy Yeah, I'm sure they're Catholic. So yeah, I think religions are a very big part of everyday life in Portugal. if yeah know if mostly In Spain it is, and France and and places like that. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy So I think it's a predominantly Catholic country. Seth i It's interesting when when you look at the constitutions of of different countries and how how many of countries that are really quite secular in a lot of ways explicitly are Christian nations and their constitutions, where then in the US, which it seems that religion is a bigger part of life here, we're explicitly not a Christian nation. Seth um So explicitly yeah supposed to be more inclusive. Andy Yeah. Seth yeah We don't do all that well about that. Andy no We're not great at it either. Seth Yeah, yeah. Seth um Yeah. Andy Yes, that was a good point when when the patient zero starts to get his eyes, yeah his vision he gets his vision back and it just it happens just as quickly as he as he lost it. Seth Right. Andy And it was then in order of the people that went blind, they started to get their sight back. And and that's pretty much where the buck ends as well. Seth Yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. the The way it's described too is everything goes dark. Andy Yes. Seth And that's that's the symbol that he's gotten his his sight back because because the insides of his eyelids are now dark instead of light. Andy Yeah, yeah. Andy Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seth Yeah. Andy Yeah, that was strange. Seth i I do think that the idea of of the the white blindness right is kind of terrifying, like you said, right where it's like, well, how how do you sleep um when when you can't shut the the light out? Andy Yeah. Seth um and you know I grew up in Alaska, so like i I was used to going to sleep when it was light outside and waking up when it was light outside during the summer you know and then the opposite in the winter. Andy Yeah. Seth um but Seth kind of as ah as I've gotten older, I have a lot less tolerance for like a lamp being on when I'm trying to go to sleep. Andy Yeah. Seth um And and right now, you know, with my with my shoulder situation, I'm in a sling and so I'm sleeping in an easy chair, right under a big lamp. Andy Okay. Seth And I've got it, i've I've got it on a timer to turn on at a particular time. and And I keep going, man, I got to change that timer. So it's not quite so damn early. ah Because because I wake up and I'm like, oh crap, there's a little lamp shining right in my eyes, and directly overhead, I reach over to my phone and turn it off. um So yeah. Seth um Yeah, so one of these days, I'm gonna have to maybe maybe I'll, ah maybe I'll pick up the sequel and see what I think of it and and do a ah short episode on it. Andy Yeah. No, I think I will. I'll look at it. Oh, I'll probably get that on Audible. Seth Yeah, yeah, I may do that as well. Andy Yeah. I don't think I'd commit the time to, uh, another, uh, Saramango book. So yeah, I'll have a look on Audible. Seth Yeah, yeah, I mean, some of his other books do look really interesting, and and I haven't read any of them. Andy Yeah. Seth um but But this one, when I looked back, it took me a couple weeks to read it. um And and i I tended at that time to be a book a week kind of person. um And so so two weeks is is a pretty gradual, and it's not a super long book, maybe 300, 400 pages. Andy Yeah. Seth um Andy Yeah, 400. Seth Okay, yeah. Andy No, no, 300. Yeah, 300 pages. Seth Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so so it it it is a bit of an undertaking, um just because of the the way it's written and and the commitment that it takes to actually sit down and like, I'm going to read until I come to a stopping point. Andy Yeah. Seth And you just have no idea when there's going to be a stopping point. Andy Yeah, yeah. Seth um Because you can't like even just Uh, flipping ahead in the book, sometimes I'd be like, where is the next paragraph break? It's three pages over, you know? Andy Yeah. Seth Um, and, uh, and then, you know, chapters would just sort of randomly end. There was, there was never really any, uh, you know, we're going to end this chapter on a cliffhanger and move into the next one. No, it was all continuous. Andy Yeah, and and this there are little breakaways. There was like a breakaway when they were talking about, I think there was a big eye convention with all the eye doctors. Seth Yeah. Seth Right. Andy And then the lead guy was just talking, oh, this isn't such a big problem. And then he went blind on stage. Seth Right. Andy And so there are little snippets of what's happening outside of this core group of characters. Seth Right. Seth In the wider world. Yeah. Andy um So that's about the only time you can put the book down is when it breaks to another snippet. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy But they're quite short. might be a paragraph at the beginning of the chapter. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy yeah Seth Yeah. Yeah. Seth I think I'm about done with my notes. Andy Yeah. Seth um Andy And then the only other thing is that, uh, the doctor's wife suddenly goes blind at the end. Seth Is that the way you read it? Andy Yeah. Seth That's not how I read it. Andy Cause she said it it and now it's my turn. Andy I thought that was the big twist. Seth Huh. Andy I thought then she went blind. Seth i've I've never taken that away from from the ending. Now I'm going to have to look. Andy Oh, wow. Seth I i thought she thought that she was going blind, and but um but was not. Andy Yeah, it's not. I don't think it's explicit, but... Andy Yeah. Seth I gotta look real quick. Andy Yeah, I'm working as well. Andy he but Yeah, he was just called the first man to go blind. Seth It's interesting in the, in the novel that I have, it doesn't even have, you know, on my e-reader doesn't even have chapter breaks. Andy Yeah, I know. Andy No. Yeah, there's no yeah there's no name chapter. Seth No, no, it says it says right. um Andy I'm on the last paragraph. Seth Last paragraph, she lifted her head up to the sky and saw everything white. It's my turn. She thought fear me and her quickly lower her eyes, the city was still there. So she thought for a moment that it might be her turn. Andy Not Christ. Andy Yeah. Seth I guess you could read an ambiguity there, right? The city is still there, but you can't see it. Um, but I, I've always read that as, as, you know, for a moment, it's kind of like if you've ever, um, been in a really dark room where there's one tiny pinpoint sources of life, light, light, and you just look away from it and and you think, are my eyes open or are are they close? Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah, yeah. Seth And then you look over and you see the the little prick of light. Andy Genuinely thought. You know, that it's that last it's those last five words. The city was still there. Seth Mm-hmm. Andy I've just blanked them out and just assumed she was going blind. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she thought so too, right? So, so. Andy Yeah. And I just and i thought, oh, that's great. She's going to go blind. And I thought that was a really good twist to the book that I've just made up. Seth Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. We'll i'll have to see if if if either of us check out the the sequel, maybe we we we can reconvene reconvene for a 10 minute discussion. Andy Yeah, yeah. Seth um And Andy or read it in the original Portuguese to make sure that's the... Yeah, yeah just... Seth There we go, there we go. you know i have a friend I have a friend from work who's who's so from Brazil. Andy Okay. Seth and And the interesting thing is he's Korean. There's a large co Korean population in Brazil. and ah And I remember when I met him and I saw his name and I thought, and I met him and I'm like, well, this is an Asian guy, but his accent it does not sound Korean to me. Andy Okay. Yeah. Seth um And so at some point I asked him, I said, Ed, I can't quite place you can place your accent. And he said, oh, I'm from Brazil. Andy Okay. Seth and Oh, interesting. So his first language was was Portuguese. Andy Cool. Seth And second language is English. And then third language, because he married a Korean woman. And so now he's been trying to to learn more Korean. But yeah. Andy Yeah, that's tough. That's gotta be tough. But it weirdly, i've read it the the Brazilian book I read was a ah dystopian book as well, and it's very similar. Seth um Seth Hmm. Andy it's kind of It's dark, it's miserable, and it follows the life of one guy who just has the worst life, he just has the worst luck, and things go wrong for him all the time. And it's it's written it's quite similar in the way that everything's really well described. Andy There's like four or five pages just on because he's so thirsty, he has a drink of water and it's just his body reacting to having a ah gulp of water and like feeling it down his throat and into his stomach and feeling rejuvenated. Andy And it's just incredible. it's but And again, it's really well-written, but you know the story's a bit, yeah, not much happens. Seth what's ah What's the novel? Andy And still the earth. Seth Okay. Andy Yeah, yeah, and that's, I can't remember who it was by. Seth Nice. Nice. Yeah. Andy But yeah, it's really good. Yeah, it's with, I'll find it notes and I'll send it to you and you can stick it in the show notes. Seth um So yeah, i I might go ahead and grab seeing and and check it out. Andy so Seth this This episode won't post until... November, I think. um So if if we if we get through it before then, if you if you get through it before then, let me know, um and and we can reconvene into a quick post-script. Andy Okay. Andy Yeah. Yeah. Oh, if it's, if it's on audible, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll umll grab it and do that. Seth Yeah, I've got a bunch of credits burning a hole in my pocket, so I need to get one. Andy yeah Seth So um anything else you want to say about this novel? Andy No, no, I think we've covered everything and I think the you know the style and the content are great. Seth So yeah. Seth Um, do you recommend it? Andy Depends to who. i think you know you know it's kind of I think someone who reads more literary stuff, then yeah. Seth Yeah. Seth Yeah. Andy To a science fiction fan, probably not. Seth Yeah. Andy If there were a science fiction fan who wants to read something more literary and challenging, then yeah. Seth yeah Andy I'd recommend it. But yeah, I'm glad you recommended it to me. And and this isn't my kind of book. Seth All right. All right, good. Andy So yeah, so yes, I would recommend it. Seth Yeah, yeah. Andy Stuff it, you know, if you don't like it, then it's not my fault. Seth And that yeah, and I'm kind of the same way. And this is why we haven't covered it for Take Me To You Reader, because I think Colin would hate it. um And I like, he hates so much of the stuff we do anyway, that that I'm like, I don't want to inflict this on him. Andy Yeah. Seth um And and some of the some of the triggering content, I think, you know, I i know him as a friend and and know, you know, this wouldn't be good for you. um And Andy Yeah. Seth On the other hand, like I think the book's absolutely brilliant. and um And so I do recommend it to people, but but you do have to have those big caveats about, oh, by the way, you know there's no punctuation. Andy It come. Seth um And so my my friend J.W., um who's been on the podcast a few times, um he reads so many books, and he was he was lamenting on a Discord that we're both on about this book that had a super lack of punctuation. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah. Seth I'm like, oh, if you think that's good, you should read blindness. And he went, nope, pass. Seth so Andy yeah Seth so was well Andy Yeah. No, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I would recommend it to certain people. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy Yeah. Over 18 only. Seth Yeah, definitely. um And let's talk briefly about the the movie because I do feel like it it's it's quite a straight adaptation. Andy Yeah. Seth um it It feels shorter than than the than the book, right? Andy Yeah. Andy Definitely. Yeah. Seth if that The timeline feels shorter as well, um where it's it's pretty quick that the blind hoodlums start to assert themselves and and everything goes all Lord of the Flies. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah. Seth um But like the depictions of the squalor of the place are very good in the movie. Andy Yes. Yeah. Seth and And I feel like it's still not quite what was described in the book. like It's an order of magnitude even worse in the book. Andy Yeah. The book is, hook yeah. Seth um Yeah. um And and the it's a pretty good cast here too, because we you have ah Mark Ruffalo as the doctor um and Julianne Moore as the doctor's wife. Andy Very descriptive. Andy Yeah. Andy Yeah. Seth And then Danny Glover is the the man with the back eye patch. And um what is her name? Andy Yeah. Seth Sophia? Not Sophia. Hang on. What's that show called that she was in? She was an I Am Legend as well. Andy Oh yeah, yeah. Seth did it do Seth Oh, yeah, not Sofia. Andy Alice. Seth Alice Braga. Yeah. Andy Yeah, I liked it up. Seth Yeah, yeah. And she plays the girl with the dark glasses. Andy Yeah. Seth um And so so yeah, pretty pretty good cast. And you know, it's not a movie that did much business at all. I think you I don't know if it was a film festival kind of thing or or what. Andy Yeah, I guess yeah, that yeah, I can't I can't remember it being released. Seth Hmm. Andy But yeah, I guess whoever, you know, the actors must have really liked the book or really liked the script. Seth Yeah, yeah. Andy Because, you know, but I don't think this book that the movie was ever going to be a big money spinner. Seth Yeah, yeah. No, I don't think so. and And so like, I would also say to people who are like, I'm not sure that I enjoy this book. Well, I mean, you could watch the movie. It's it's it's an abridgment of it, but it hits the major points. Andy Yeah. And I can't see anybody watching the movie and then going, I really want to read the book now. Seth Right, right. did you ah Did the book have the moment in it? I remember in the in the movie, at some point, the Mark Ruffalo character is is like, all right, well, you know if you want to volunteer for this, raise your hand. And then he's like, sorry, that was stupid. Seth um Andy I can't remember. Seth i can't I can't actually count your hands because I can't see. um um Yeah. Andy Yeah, I don't know. I can't remember if that was in the book or not, but yeah, I remember the scene in the film. Yeah, that was good. Seth Yeah, yeah. Andy Yeah. Seth Um, yeah, so, so yeah, I think it's definitely a novel worth reading. And this is one that, you know, I had on my list just cause I've, I'd kind of wanted to cover it for Take Me To Your Reader for a while, but, um, but just, yeah, I, you know, I, I know Colin well enough that I think, no, maybe, maybe we won't do that one. Andy Yeah. Seth So, so thank you for doing a um a mini Take Me To Your Reader with me. Andy I know we but it works. Seth Yeah. Andy It's a crossover of three podcasts. Seth Yeah. Yes. Yes, absolutely. um Oh, you said you said you had some remaining quiz from from Glasgow that you wanted to give me. Andy Oh yeah. So there was three rounds that we didn't have time for. Seth All right. Andy and Let me just pull that up. um don't So the three rounds are... Andy I'll stop doing that. Seth So people people listening to this, you you have to ah you have to let me know if you do better than I do. Andy Weapons. Andy Yeah. And there's this big bonus round. I'm going to put in a couple of bonus questions, which get you big, big points. Seth Oh, all right. Andy Yeah. So the rounds are weapons, numbers, and time travel. Andy That's question one. So I'm going to give you a number and you have to give me what the what that refers to. Seth okay Andy Now, there's a point for this question, or there's nine bonus points if you get it as the book. Seth Okay. Andy that you know Most people give the the the generic answer, but that's slightly inaccurate. Seth Okay. Andy There is a more accurate answer to give. Seth I think I know what you're, what you're going for. Andy Go on then, 42. Seth 42. The ultimate answer to life, the universe and everything. Is that not quite right? Andy It's the answer to the question of life, the universe and everything. Seth The question. Andy So that I give you five points for that, because you know that it's the answer rather than it's, most people say it's the meaning of life and it's not the meaning of life. Seth Okay. Okay. All right. Right. Right. Andy It's the answer to the question of the meaning of life. Seth Yeah. Andy 88. Seth 88 miles per hour. Back to the future. Andy Yep. Perfect. Seth Yeah. Andy 1984. Seth I'm assuming that's George Orwell. Andy Yeah. Yeah. The year in which George Orwell's book is set. Seth Yeah. Andy 2001. Seth A space Odyssey. Andy Yep. ah like Most of them were dead easy. and This is the easy round for the yeah for the world conquest. Seth All right. Nice. Andy um There's only one hard one, which is 3720 to one. Seth Ah, that's the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field. Andy That was word perfect. Seth Thank you. Empire, sorry. I've seen that movie so many times. Andy Yeah. Seth So the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field are approximately 3,720 to one. Andy yeah So I wasn't sure if anyone would get it. I thought that one might be too hard to get. Seth Yeah. Andy But good work. Seth Yeah. Nope. Andy Excellent work. ah So we're going on to weapons. So I'm going to give you the name of a weapon. Seth Okay. Andy You need to tell me the film book the or TV series that it's from. Seth Okay. Andy The Noisy Cricket. Seth That is men in black. Andy That is Men in Black. Seth I feel like I'm gonna break this damn thing. Andy um The Lawgiver. Seth ah Judge Dredd? Andy Judge Dredd. Andy I don't know. My pronunciation might be wrong on this one. Seth Okay. Andy Um, but left. Seth A batliff is ah is a a pointy object from ah Klingon warfare in Star Trek, the next generation. Andy Yep. Uh, again, the pronunciation might be wrong on this one as well, but Moya. Seth Oh, that's ah Thor's hammer, right? Andy That is stars. Hammer. Seth Mm-hmm. Andy Uh, a Sonic screwdriver. Seth That is Doctor Who. I have seen sufficient, you know, like three episodes of Doctor Who, enough to know that, so. Andy perfect uh that's 100 so far yeah and yeah and four bonus points uh so this is time travel machines i'm going to give you a device which allows you to time travel you need to give me the film or tv series or book a british police box that is dr an american telephone box Seth Sweet. Seth Mm-hmm. Seth I feel like I should do well with this. Seth ah Call box, right? Yeah, that's Dr. Who. Seth That is Bill and Ted's excellent adventure bogus journey and, you know, whatever else. Andy Yeah, perfect. Seth Yeah. Andy A GMC DeLorean. Seth That's back to the future. Andy That's back to the future. Seth I don't think I knew it was GMC. Andy Yeah, GMC. Seth Hmm. Interesting. Andy Do you know the... Oh, for a bonus point, what's the license plate? Seth out of time hot tub time machine yeah Andy Yeah, okay. A hot tub. Andy Yeah. If I said jacuzzi, would you have got hot tub? Would you have got that? Seth yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so way back oh this is um this is like a kid's show right the way back um Andy Damn it, I should have said jacuzzi. The Wayback. Andy Yeah. Seth day Andy It's animated. Seth I, yeah, it's animated. I can't come up with it. The professor or Peabody. No. Andy Yeah. Andy He's not a professor, though. Oh, maybe. Seth I can't quite come up with it. Andy Oh, it is professor. Seth um Sherman. Andy and ah Professor Peabody in Sherman. Seth Okay. and All right. You know, partial credit. Andy Yeah. Yeah, that's yeah. And the bonus point for this is a cooling cup of coffee. This is a 10 pointer. Seth Cooling cup of coffee. Andy Depends how much Japanese science fiction time travel you've read. Seth Hmm. Not very much, evidently. um It's not all you need is kill, I imagine. Andy no It's before the coffee gets cold. It's a it's a really good book of five series of Really quite emotional time travel books about you know You go sit in a cafe and you order a coffee and before your coffee gets cold you can visit somebody that was already in that cafe really really cool books, but They made me cry. Seth Oh, nice. Andy They're really really moving stories. Seth Hmm. Andy But yeah, really good. Seth Hmm. Andy yeah Seth Was this something something you did for your, your podcast? Andy Yeah No, I just I haven't done it for the podcast, but I probably will choose. There's so many Japanese science fiction books. Seth Yeah. Yeah. Andy um And these were, the first one in the series was available on Audible. So like I downloaded it and then I bought a few more. And then my my son's really into Japanese japanese stuff. Andy um So he recommended the book as well. So yeah, there read he read like books two and three and I read one and four and and stuff. Seth and Andy And they all they do all interconnect and it's really, they're really quite clever. but You can read them as individual stories, but yeah. Seth no Yeah, I love that, the father and son kind of dynamic. Andy Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Seth Yeah. Andy um So yeah, you got 100% on that quiz. Seth All right. Andy I feel like I've made it too easy. Seth You saved the hard ones for Glasgow. Andy I did do the harder ones at World Cup because... Seth I was thrown off by the way you pronounced La Forge. You said La Forge and for some reason it did not compute and I'm like that. Andy and for yeah ah yeah i just my wife's French. Seth Yeah. Andy So anything anytime she's there's a French word, she says it in full French mode. Seth Oh, nice. Okay. Seth Ah. Andy and You know, she doesn't speak English with an accent at all. Seth Mm. Andy But yeah, when she says a French word, it's full French mode, so la forge. Seth Yes. Yeah, yeah. Andy it's I naturally overpronounce things in French way. Seth That makes sense. Seth Right, right, right. Where we, ah I don't know if this is common in the US, but um we will often, um kind of kind of riffing off of ah Keeping Up Appearances, the British comedy show. Andy Yeah. Seth You know, oh, it's bouquet, darling, you know. Andy Yeah. Seth um ah we we you know and We don't go to Target, we go to Target. Andy Yeah, same thing. Seth So, yeah, yeah. Andy Yeah, that's brilliant. Well done. Seth Nice. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for the, uh, the remainders of the quiz. So. Andy No, that's fine. Seth Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, where can people find you Andy? Andy On blue sky now. Seth You've recently moved off of one particular, uh, yeah. Andy Yeah, I moved off Twitter, or X, I found Elon Musk quite distasteful and recently, so I'm not giving him any any of my internet space. Seth Yeah. Seth Yeah. Seth Nice. Nice. Andy um So I'm on BlueSky, and it's just S-F-A-T-W at BlueSky, or however you do it on BlueSky. Seth Yeah, yeah. Andy I'm still not getting used to it. Seth All right. Andy I'm still slowly getting used to it. Seth I'll put a link in there. Yeah. Anything you're working on right now for the, for the podcast, anything, any, uh, upcoming stuff that's going to be coming out in, you know, November. Andy um i'm gonna i'm gonna Yeah, so probably before this, I'll have done one with ah Damo. We're going to do yeah so we're go to do Cloud of Desolation, which is a really... Seth Oh, fun. Andy I've just had a series of really bleak dystopian science fiction books from around the world. So when I read Blindness, it is was just like, oh, God, I just want to read something with spaceships and aliens and yeah different planets. Seth Hmm. Seth Yeah, yeah. Seth No, is this, is this a book from Ireland or is this a, okay. Andy Yeah. so Yeah, yeah. Seth Nice. Andy And it's there's there's very few. and And the books, it's a really rare book. And Damien was like, oh, I'll just send you a copy of my book. oh you know And just send it to me back. And in the end, I did find a book online, a secondhand copy. Seth Hmm. Andy But yeah, they're really rare. Seth Yeah. Andy and But it's just bleak and miserable. But it's good. Seth but One of the cool things about about the the podcast is like um is seeing people who I know like know each other because of my podcast or because of my podcast and others. Andy Oh, yeah. Seth um And it's it's cool to get to see people interact. And so it was it was nice that you you guys hadn't met before Worldcon, right? Andy No, no, no. So it will kind of, it was great. Seth Yeah. Andy were you yeah So after bit after your live podcast, we went and we went and sat in the bar for a bit. Seth Nice. Andy Yeah, had a great time. Seth Cool. Andy Yeah, he's good fun. He's really good fun. And and just knows his stuff as well. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy Yeah, he's really good. Seth Yeah, yeah. Andy But yeah, you can find me on on that. And I'll send you a link to my website, because I can never remember what it is. Yeah, even searching for it, I don't find it. Seth Sounds good. Seth All right. Andy And I know exactly what it's called. Seth Yeah. All right. I'll go ahead and sign off. Don't don't close your browser. Andy yeah yeah Seth All right. Well, Andy, thank you so much for doing this um and being flexible. i yeah I think I've been stringing you along for a couple of months. Yeah, I'll get to that. um I sent you a ah ping, I think, ah right when I got back from Scotland and I was sick. Andy Yeah. Seth um and Andy Well, that's fine. I'm, I'm super flexible as well. So next one. Seth Awesome. Cool. All right. Well, talk again sometime. Andy Yeah. Seth Okay.