SethH Hi there, and welcome back to Hugo's There 2.0. And this is another of the zoomed out sub genre spotlight episodes that I've been doing. And this time we're covering military science fiction. And the obvious guest for this episode was previous guest William from Future War Stories, who joined me just over six years ago to cover the forever war. So now he's back. Hi there, William. Thanks for coming back. William from FWS Oh, it's a real pleasure and I cannot believe it's been six years. It was forever ago, but that's the were always great. SethH Yeah. It was. yeah yeah it ah It's always a time warp when I have previous guests on. like It seems like it was yesterday, but it was not. um That was episode 20, and I think this one is in the 90s somewhere. so SethH I agree. i mean all right ah so Let's go ahead and and talk about military science fiction. oh Actually, before we get to that, I'll just try that again. um so Anything new with future war stories? I pulled up the website the other day. I see it's still a going concern. William from FWS It is, it has been slower over the last two years, do with a new job and more home responsibilities. And I've unfortunately became very much into playing Destiny 2, which kind of took over my life for a little while and I very much apologize to anyone. William from FWS that follows my blog regularly just because it has been difficult to do uploads and I've been attempting to do another format with a podcast and I'm hoping to launch it at some point, but life does get in the way. I am actually about to publish a new article on StarCom, the US Space Force toy line, probably in about two more weeks. I just scored an interview with somebody. So that's rolling out and then I'm hoping to keep back in production. SethH Nice. and just you know I guess I didn't say at the top, right future war stories sorry Future War Stories is a blog about military science fiction. yeah William from FWS Yes, it is. yeah It's only a blog because I didn't want to pay for a website, so I did it on the cheap. And it's, they're in-depth articles about different topics surrounding military science fiction and everything to do. William from FWS I, the tagline is, future war stories, explaining and exploring the realm of military science fiction. That's my, thank you. SethH Very nice. All right, so then you're the perfect person to answer what is military science fiction, kind of as we move into the intro portion of the subgenre spotlight. William from FWS Hmm. William from FWS It, military science fiction is a sub-genre of science fiction that covers like a vast array of settings and stories that are countless as the stars in the known universe. SethH Hmm. William from FWS And it started off in 1889 with H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds. And military science fiction explores one of the most popular types of sci-fi stories, which is war and the after effects and the people that fight it and the people that are affected by it. William from FWS but The settings and the stories, this is the key, the settings and stories revolve around military situations, military technology, military characters, and all manner of conflicts, wars, and hostilities. William from FWS And this could include soldiers fighting, undistant wars on on off-world colonies, it can include alien invasions, it posts nuclear holocaust situations, and wars in time rather than in space, Doctor Who, for instance. SethH Hmm. Hmm. Yes. William from FWS and even space exploration stories that have military characters in it. Kind of like the 2008-2009 movie that Rondi Moore made called Virtuality, which had a couple of military characters. It kind of runs that genre. William from FWS And, you know, and we know, you know, military science fiction, Starship Troopers, Halo, Warhammer 40k, Ballastry Galactica, and others. So that's what military science fiction is. And it, you know, most people are going to equivalent fighting, you know, you know, hideous bugs and off-roll colonies, but it can be just as simple as a military character in a science fiction story and it can be not that exciting. William from FWS but And that's why I wanted to talk about running the gambit between different kinds of stories that explore different kinds of military situations. But that to me is kind of the definition. SethH Yeah, nice. i I've noticed that in – when you sent me the list of like, you know, here's the sort of recommended reading. I'm like, oh, I've read quite a few of those, you know. William from FWS Yes. SethH um and And some of it is just because like Starship Troopers and the Forever War are both on like two of the classics and they're on the Hugo's list, right? So I i had to read those. um but But I've noticed that like, I think it's like with any genre but right where the the sort of sub-genre that you're doing can be very just sort of bare bones to tell this story, right? Or it can be the background to tell a really complex story or to and explore themes as well. And not all military science fiction does both of those things. Some of it is just like, I'm going to tell you a roaring, rip-roaring adventure SethH set in a, you know, military thing. And it's there's not gonna be nothing deeper. And and you're gonna be okay with it. William from FWS Yes, or it could be Ball Star Galactica, the re-imagining series, which covers some of those episodes, no one fires a shot, um they're gonna drink. SethH Yeah. Right. William from FWS I mean, it's Ball Star Galactica, but it's a show that, that's a show that to me that can tell the depth and breadth of military science fiction. It doesn't always have to be you know the 1997 movie Starship Troopers. William from FWS It doesn't always have to be 40K where there's endless war, although, you know, So I think it, it's interesting to see kind of what, how authors and creators, my kind of terminology for everyone, how they explore these topics and within it and military science fiction, you know, sometimes you can get it wrong and say, okay, I think this, this thing is, and may it may not be when you look at it. SethH Yeah, yeah. William from FWS So SethH There's also kind of the the and almost like a there's some common DNA between military science fiction and hard science fiction, where the hard science fiction author really wants to talk about the science really wants to talk about the technology, where in in military science fiction, a lot of military science fiction authors really want to tell you about the ships and the weapons and the armor. William from FWS careful William from FWS explosive tip caseless, right? The line from Aliens. when So as a creator in the genre as well, but you know and that's one thing with future work stories, it's like, what exactly would be a phase pulse rifle, a phase plasma rifle in a 40 watt range? SethH Yep. SethH Right. William from FWS What does that line mean in Terminator? So we explored it. And to me, you know you can it's like Star Trek. I have technical manuals behind me that are detailed of the warp drive that Enterprise-D. SethH Hmm. William from FWS But then, the you know, you might skip and say, okay, we really want to know about the phasers. And so I think every author in the genre really has something that they want to explore. And you're right. Military science fiction, unlike the hard science fiction, we want to talk about the body armor, the guns, the tanks, all the military paraphernalia, as it would seem. William from FWS They want to talk about, and in military science fiction, the one big thing that we love to talk about armored power suits. We love our armored power suits. SethH Yes. Yeah, big time. William from FWS Big time. SethH um Are there would would you say there's, you know, military science fiction analogues to basically like all the branches of the service that you can think of, you know, Army Air Force Marines? William from FWS even cuscar Even Coast Guard, is there have been some Coast Guard-esque mentions. SethH Maybe? Yeah, even Coast Guard, right? William from FWS I'm sorry, I cut you off from your question. SethH No, no, no, that would that me you just sort of completed the question. William from FWS There are, there's, I wrote an article recently about would there be blue water navies in off-world military organizations? Would you, you know, when everyone thinks about space Navy or space fleets, people debate about what terms should be used, but would there actually be naval ships in off-world alien oceans? SethH Right. Surface fleets, you know? William from FWS It was, thank you, thank you. SethH Yeah. William from FWS That would have been much more eloquent. You know, it doesn't always, oh. SethH I'm reading the hunt for out October right now. So William from FWS Oh my god, yeah, I have a copy of that lying around. Everyone has a copy of that lying around. First movie I ever saw on Surround Sound. SethH oh nice. William from FWS Yeah, Salt and Tulsa. ah I think that's an interesting thing because, you know, what are the two organizations we see in most? We see some sort of infantry, space marines, not the, we see, you know, space marines of some type. William from FWS We're gonna see a space navy, a star fleet of some kind. SethH right William from FWS But it's like, I have seen references to like a Coast Guard, Blue Water Navy, surface navies, you know, even medical branches and Air Force, they're the more complicated because it's like, how do you put them in the mix with all that? William from FWS And then you'll get people that really spread them out. A lot of times, war top simulation games have the most complex military organizations because it's hard to communicate that. SethH Right. William from FWS in a written page and it gets really it gets really in the weeds on it. SethH Hmm. William from FWS But something like Robotech, for instance, you know when they because it was an anime and then you put it into book form, there's more of an equivalation in your mind. I can picture this and I can go there. That sometimes can help. SethH Nice. William from FWS But Starfleet doesn't have any tanks or anything. They're pretty easy to talk about. They just have ships and phasers and pretty uniform. So you know it's interesting, yeah, how they can make the difference between those kinds of organizations. SethH Yeah. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS But that's an interesting question. I do think it's really interesting how they picture their future military organizations looking at all these different titles we're gonna talk about. So. SethH Yeah. All right. So on that note, why don't we go ahead and head into sort of the 101, the beginner recommendations. William from FWS Sure. SethH If you are not familiar with military science fiction, where should you start? William from FWS There is the Holy Trinity of the beginning titles. That is going to be Starship Troopers by Robert Highline, which is from November of 1959. Old Man's War by John Scazzi. William from FWS That's 2006, I believe. And We Have the Forever War by Joe Handelman from 1975. SethH Yeah. William from FWS These are the big three. They're an A lot of listeners and readers, when they Google this term, military science fiction, they are going to come across these three titles. SethH Yeah. William from FWS Or just through osmosis. Starship Troopers has a very famous or infamous movie, depending on your mileage, ah from 1997. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS And now with Helldivers, and there's going I think there is a Starship Troopers-like game that has got the original actor who played Johnny Rico. SethH Hmm. William from FWS so Starship Troopers has, from I mean that book is from 1959, it has legs. And then The Forever War has been in movie production off and on for many years, but has enjoyed a life through people like me. And the graphic novels from the 80s by N.B.W., N.B.M. SethH IDW. William from FWS No, it's actually a company I've never heard of. And NBM, something like that, I apologize. You may be awkward about that. They've produced a series of really great ah uh graphic novels in the 80s and actually took my very first article ever in future work stories was about it um i actually bought it and found it it took me forever to get the other two so these have enjoyed and the and one day i think the fred war is going to be a major movie old man's war eventually is going to be something it's one of the best but let's all kind of talk about what these three are what they kind of share in common why they're kind of the beginning William from FWS So in the beginning, there was H.G. Wells' War of the Worlds, which has been told and retold many, many times by many different ways in 1953, and I think in 2005 with, of course, Steven Spielberg and Tom Cruise. William from FWS um But Starship Troopers is, to me, the founding classic of military science fiction, because what does it do? It gives us power suits. The very first opening scene is with power suits and atomic grenades. William from FWS That's the interesting thing about this book that I think most people miss. SethH Right. William from FWS It was written in 59. Robert Highline, who was with Isaac Asinoff and other early writers, wanted kind of a kid story on democracy, if I remember the story correctly. William from FWS he read Writes this book that is incredibly important science fiction, but it's a dense book to read now You've read it fairly recently like and it's if people are expecting the 1997 Paul Warehoven movie you're gonna be really sorely disappointed um I wish Michael Ironside was in the book, too um The power suits don't even make it until the third direct to you know, the Marauder suits don't even make it to the third movie from 2005 I think anyway SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah, those movies, the the sequel movies are pretty bad. William from FWS I enjoyed the third one a little bit. um I have to admit, I kind of enjoyed it. And Jillian Blalock, who was in Star Trek Enterprise, which is my favorite enterprise, my favorite Star Trek, she was in it, and she's super awesome. SethH Hmm. SethH Hmm. William from FWS and i you know um So the Starship Troopers is written in 59, so it it it has a very involved military structure. It tells a lot about the journey from citizen, from non-citizen member of the Federation, William from FWS to becoming a citizen in the mobile infantry and he pioneered a lot of concepts that especially Japanese animation and and manga would pick up on later and this book is dense and it's fairly really interesting but has little combat in it very little and some uh hang on sorry SethH Yeah. William from FWS I think it's a book that if you're going to be if you're going to be interested in military or science fiction, it's a book I would say is really worth reading. SethH Hmm. William from FWS But to me, it's almost a similarly in of military science fiction because it is a little bit denser. It's not the movie, it's not the book you think it is, but you come away always remembering it. SethH Yeah. William from FWS You've read it, what do you think? that Since you... SethH Yeah, you know, I don't really recall ever having any any difficult. need Sorry, I don't really recall having any difficulty getting through it. um It was one of my dad's favorite. SethH Like it was a beach read for him. William from FWS Really? SethH Yeah. And um and he it seemed like three or four times. and I'm sure I talked about this on my on one of my other podcasts about it because I've done it for Take Me To You Reader, talking about the movie on the book and for um for this podcast. William from FWS Hmm. SethH And he used to, lots of times when they would come down from Alaska to visit us in Oregon, they would go out to the coast for a while, and he would always have a used bookstore out there. And almost every time without fail, he he'd buy a copy of Starship Troopers and then leave it at my house. SethH and and so That was the first way i I read it on one of those $3 ones that he picked up from ah from an outlet store in Lincoln City, Oregon. um and and so yeah i I read it and i you know i I did not find it dense. um Now, the one different thing about it right is that here you have this foundational military science fiction title. SethH And it's not so concerned about the combat stuff. It's much more concerned about about some of the philosophical ideas that a lot of people find objectionable um to Heinlein. William from FWS Correct. SethH He, you know, pick up a different Heinlein book, and it's a different philosophy. William from FWS He's different. SethH So it's not like Starship Troopers is just like everything he believes, but, um but it's it's there, right? William from FWS Yeah. William from FWS Exactly. SethH He's talking about yeah themes. William from FWS The book is also really a breakdown of kind of ah a World War II military structure in space. SethH Yes. William from FWS It's not a modern military. This was written during, this is written after Korea during when the Cold War as we know it was starting to really become a thing and the proxy wars of that time period were going to be starting. William from FWS This is post Korea before Vietnam. But most military science fiction authors today are pulling from modern conflicts post 9-11. So we have to remember that what Highline did is put a World War II style military into space. SethH Right. William from FWS And there's a lot of discussion about training and structure and rank. And and it's very starting to become a book that's getting close to the hundred year mark. I mean, it's going to be soon. William from FWS um So I think that's one of the things about it and I think for a lot of people that may have seen the movie that want to know more Do you want to know more? um I definitely think that it's a it's a title. It's basically the founding classic now Since we talked about someone who served a war to which Highline did we're gonna talk about somebody served in Vietnam SethH Yeah. William from FWS And that is Joe Haneman. SethH Joe, Joe Haldeman, yeah. William from FWS Thank you. yeah He is, if I remember correctly, has a bachelor's degree in astrophysics, if I remember correctly, and that may be corrected. But he came at this, we were discussing earlier about hard science fiction. William from FWS This book is heartbreaking. and we and You and I discussed it six years ago at length, but it's a heartbreaking book. I cried at the end of it, not ashamed to say. It tells the horrors of combat through the eyes of someone who served in Vietnam, and I think the book was a cathartic experience for him. William from FWS It's a book I recently read and I was, of course, it has soldiers that are kind of, some of the people in it fought in Vietnam in the character background, because I think the book originally starts off in the mid 90s, late 90s, I think. And it's a book that does, because of his background in science, he was one of the, not the first author, but the first one I really liked the way he put, if we travel faster than light to fight a war, what consequences does that have for the soldiers? SethH Yeah. William from FWS And it's put into such heartbreaking detail. And like a lot of the Vietnam soldiers came back to a very different world um and during the States, he comes back several times into more into earth space or earth controlled space. And he has encounters with totally different people that are thousands of years separated from him. No spoilers for us. It's a book I think everyone should read in the genre because it is so emotional. It's so well written and heartbreaking. SethH Yeah, no, it's it's terrific. And I got to meet Joe Haldeman at the atd Worldcon this year in in Scotland. William from FWS Take you. Oh, SethH I just, you know, just said hello to the men is ah to him and gay in the in the yeah hallway. William from FWS oh oh his inspiration. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS And you can tell how much he loves his wife by reading that book. It's a weird thing to say, but I feel like I know the man on a I don't. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS I think everyone that reads the book has a window into his soul. SethH Yeah, well, they're a great team to like, I've seen them on on other doing ah other podcasts and and video interviews and stuff. William from FWS and Really? SethH And they're they're just seeing it seems like they're always together. It's it's quite heartwarming, actually. William from FWS I love that. And I think he's a very important voice. SethH Yeah. William from FWS He did write ah a sequel, but I really recommend anyone pick that up. And, and the cover arts are kind of interesting. The older cover arts are really interesting. Even the graphic novels, if anyone's not like, I don't want to read it, but the graphic novels are really good and they were republished. SethH Yeah. SethH yeah William from FWS They're not, they're not hundreds of dollars, like, what you know, or 50 bucks to buy anymore. They're, they're, and you can download them digital. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS The Gun Titan. SethH Yeah. William from FWS um SethH it's It's worth reminding folks that um forever peace is not actually a sequel to the forever war um forever free as the direct sequel. William from FWS Hmm. William from FWS forever free. Yes. SethH Yeah. William from FWS Yes. And it's different. SethH It's okay. i Yeah, I read it last year. William from FWS It's okay. SethH It was fine. William from FWS its fine There is a ah short story that has the events of one of the other characters away, and I can't remember where that short story is contained, but I remember reading it at Barnes Noble once. SethH Hmm. William from FWS Anyway, um The Forever War is a phenomenal book, and to me it is the best military science fiction book I've ever written because of the heart, the passion, it explores the trauma of soldiers living for a war that does not end, that goes on for thousands of years. William from FWS and SethH Yeah. William from FWS I think it it's ah it's the emotional core sometimes to military science fiction that grounded it and I think it only could have been written by somebody that experienced war. SethH Yeah, yeah. William from FWS And the third book I usually, and I've gifted this book to a lot of people, is by John Scazzi. That is called The Old Man's War from 2006. And it has two sequels. William from FWS Actually, the second book is my favorite of the series. And he's written other books in the Old Man Wars universe. But the the beginning book is such a fascinating concept. He did something unique. SethH Yeah. William from FWS elderly people signing up for military service off world into a kind of a different society and getting to become you know these these new bodies that are green and these Fasting weapons that he based on nanotechnology um and these aliens that are I mean, there are he does not mess around with his descriptions of how horrific it is. The boot camp scenes, boot camp, sorry, they can't see my quotations, is really enjoyable. And it is a blast to read. It will stay with you. It is hard hitting. William from FWS but it is a very accessible book. If you want more combat, because the Forever War has a little bit, Starship Troopers only has one or two, but Old Man War has brutal combat, and it's a nice mix. SethH yeah William from FWS And really, one of the better intro concepts and so and really great characters, and all three books are really good in the original series, I cannot recommend it enough, and one day they're going to turn into a blockbuster. William from FWS By the way, for This this is to earmark this in case this ever really happens if they ever make the movie to the forever war I went 39 the song 39 by not an opera off of the Queen you off the Queen's Album the night at the opera There's a song called 39 and it should be either the beginning or end theme to forever war and if you ever listen to it Anyone wants to listen to it to me. SethH Yeah. Hmm. William from FWS It's a perfect complement to the forever war SethH Nice. I will say I love that it's these three books that you're kind of doing as the as the the one on one, at least the top of the list. Right. William from FWS Yes, top of the list. SethH Because I have to admit that, like, when I think back to any of those books, I always go, now, was that in the forever war or in Starship Troopers or in the old man's war? SethH And usually if it's a and like if it's a combat scene, I'm like, it's probably in old man's war. William from FWS Yes. SethH But um but I do get them mixed up. I'm like, what where was the one where the dude fell over and he died because his cooling system No, went out of order. I think that's the forever war. William from FWS That's a forever war, that's where there are basic training inside the solar system, yep. SethH Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. William from FWS that That's a brutal sequence, and it, oh yeah, and I remember reading that. SethH Oh, it's pretty, it's terrible it's tragic. Yeah. William from FWS I read that book in when my dad was in the hospital, and I remember it really put me where they were. It's a phenomenal book. But Old Man's War is is going to be something big one day. SethH Yeah, yeah. William from FWS I think SCSI laid out a very interesting world, and I cannot say. SethH i'm I'm curious in the you know post-Avatar world, right with the where in the um in the second, a and in the Avatar sequel, right they essentially sort of have the ghost brigades almost because they have the they have an upload of the of the general from the first one who gets a new body. William from FWS Ah, yes. William from FWS Yeah, I caught that. I'd never seen that move all the way through. I was like, um that's really interesting. William from FWS I kind of thought about that and then now you're bringing it back. That was, yeah, that's true. And it leads a whole other level. SethH Yeah. William from FWS There have been a couple authors that have explored that concept of uploading You know, famous, there's a book somewhere and someone's going to know this. There is a book somewhere where like the greatest general's brains were in a box. William from FWS It's from like, I think it's all an Atomic Rockets website. There's like a picture. Anyway, but it's interesting to see how people can take a concept and then bring it. And the second avatar movie, that was one of the more interesting concepts in the entire thing. SethH All right, so I know i know we have ah we have several other titles that we're going to talk about in Sort and sort of 101. William from FWS Yes. William from FWS Yes. SethH Let's go through these a little quicker. William from FWS Okay, so I wanna talk about another book ah that has a very simple premise, but is is really good. It's called Orphanage by Robert, really, Betner, thank you. SethH Betner, maybe? William from FWS um And it's a about a soldier who signs up who's been orphaned because there are kinetic impact actors hitting the planet. It's about the very first expedition to Ganymede to stop it. SethH Hmm. William from FWS I bought this book based on the cover art, I'm sorry to say. and reading the first two pages, I bought it at Borders, if anyone remembers Borders. SethH Wow. William from FWS I bought it, devoured it, and I've given this book as gifts. It's a phenomenal, it's one of the awards, it's one of the better ah interests, but it's a great book, has a great love story, has a great character, and it has a really interesting setup, and it's just a fast read. William from FWS But Orphanage is a great book, great concept, fantastic author, and he's written more in the series, but I fully recommend it. a really interesting book and everyone's going to know this is halo halo has books and i did not know this um At the time, I always figured the Halo book, the very first one, which is by Eric Newland, nolan and he publishes in October of 2001. William from FWS The Halo video game is from November 19th, I believe. It's in November of 2001. This book predates it. they did that I don't know why that came out. SethH Wow. William from FWS I did not know that until today. SethH Yeah, I didn't know that. William from FWS um But the fall of Reach tells the story of the fall of Reach. But you could say, why i'm not into Halo? You don't have to be. This is a solid military science fiction book about the entire Spartan program. Super soldiers are part and parcel. They're the peanut butter to chocolate to power suits and military science fiction. You can have both. And of course, in Halo, we do get both. This is a solid story, whether you like Halo or not. It is a little bit different if you played Reach. It is a different story than Reach, but Reach was in 2010. This is 2001. William from FWS um There's a really funny joke about those two movies in there somewhere, but I don't have it. um But Halo is my favorite game. And I bought this book, I own the original, because in 2010 they did redo them. William from FWS I think to kind of catch up with Canon. But I will say this, they're a phenomenal book written by a phenomenal writer who had to establish a lot of Canon. And he established some things that have been carried forth. SethH Yeah. William from FWS I think it's a solid book. You do not have to be in Halo. And it's probably the greatest video game book ever written. And I was really leery, but I had friends who said, oh dude, you gotta read that book. And so I read it. I was shocked how good it is. William from FWS It is a fast-paced book. I fully recommend it. William from FWS A book I read recently, like very during, I was actually reading during the ah solar the eclipse recently, was Terms of Enlistment by Marco Clus. SethH Close. William from FWS Close. I was close on that. And I apologize, he is a phenomenal writer. SethH Yeah, you are. William from FWS I have to say that upfront, he was inspired by the same people that I think all of us military science mentioned. He read the classics, but then he turned something out with a very simple concept that is just an intoxicating read. Great kind of love story in it, great premise. William from FWS um It's a kid who grows up in the slums. The only way you can get off world is through a lottery system or you join the military and you have that terms of service and then you get to go on one of the off-world colonies. it has I think it made them, you know, there's a little bit of Blade Runner in that sentence. I don't think he meant that but it and i it's very visceral. The character is really good. The action is really good. William from FWS It's a fast book. I was shocked how fast I read it. I'm a slow reader. I devoured pages. I could not wait to read it. And it's it's definitely a child of these other books that the three weeks. SethH Yeah. William from FWS Yeah. Have you read it? SethH yeah Yeah, I got the audiobook a couple months ago, and and I had seen in Love, Death, and Robots, they adapted one of the stories that's set in the terms of enlistment universe the lines universe, i Lucky 13, which is fantastic. William from FWS Hmm. William from FWS Yes. Huh. Yes. SethH It was my favorite episode of the Love, Death, and Robots. but um This book, yeah, I think calling it like a child of of the other, the big three really makes sense to me because to me, it's sort of like the distilled down essence of the basic military science fiction thing that doesn't necessarily have a ton to say, but does it really entertainingly. William from FWS Yes. SethH um And I don't know if the rest of the series might might bring in some themes and and you know deeper discussions, but but to me, it was you know kind of like, this is what I picture from a military science fiction title. William from FWS 100%, and I think you hit the nail on the head because it is that, and it it it fulfills so many elements, and I can't i can't praise him enough, um and it is a product of The Big Three, but it's his own thing, and it's really accessible. I think with all these beginning titles, they're accessible. Every one of these titles we've talked about after really The Big Three are very accessible. They're just like your old sneakers. They're really good to put on. They have really good premises. They're they're always gonna start, you're always gonna go to bootcamp, and most of them, William from FWS And you're going to learn this. SethH At least in book one, right? William from FWS At least a book one, and there's going to be more of them. And especially with the Halo book, you don't even have to read anymore. You've got everything. And in terms of enlistment, it's a series I'm probably going to read the next one, and like Orphanage, and kind of see if I'm going to go. William from FWS A book that was a surprise, because I know the author, because he wrote 40K. And I, you know, 40K is 40K. It's a great series. And of course, now it's very popular with Space Marine 2, which I want to play. William from FWS It's embedded by Dan Abrett. It's a British... SethH ab an Abnet, I think, isn't it? William from FWS Abnett, thank you. This is people gonna go, yeah, I am so sorry. SethH Yeah. Yeah, just take that one again. William from FWS Abnett. SethH Yeah, yeah what why don't you just say, just just go back to that one. William from FWS Okay, thank you. So the other book I really want to talk about is a title that I kind of saw on the shelf a lot. I eventually bought it. The cover changed a few times and it's embedded by Dan Abrett. SethH Abnet, I think it's an N, right? William from FWS Abnent okay, so I'm gonna talk about now Dan Abnent's book embedded better and he's a noted 40k writer and I Wasn't sure what to think about this book and then when I read it it was delicious It was it's about a it takes place on a planet that just has a number 86 and it has a story about a journalist his name is Lex and he SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. SethH Hmm. Okay. William from FWS through product he gets embedded literally in the head of a soldier to see what's going on on planet 86 in this battle. SethH Interesting. So so like embedded journalist kind of thing. William from FWS Exactly. SethH Oh, that's fascinating. William from FWS It is, and it does not disappoint. I'm not going to spoil anything in this book, but I can tell you the weapons I think are very much influenced by Elysium, the 2011 movie. SethH Yeah. SethH yeah William from FWS and the The weapons seem kind of similar to that, but the and it's got power suits, but that's all semantics. It's how he conducts it, how he shows it, and how he puts you in those moments. William from FWS Some of the battle scenes, you could feel it. SethH Yeah. William from FWS and but i don't want Once again, we're not we're not spoiling at these titles, but Embedded is a book that I like to see more of this author write more. i now I'm going to pick up some of his 40K books because of it. SethH Okay. William from FWS So, of course we have to talk about another real classic here, and I put it farther down the list because it is Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card, who has a fantastic name for an author, right? SethH Nice. William from FWS Great name. SethH Yeah. William from FWS He's written a lot in this series, and of course the movie the movie really opened up the 1985 book to most people. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS And the movie and the book are close. They did wipe out an entire sub story. SethH Yeah, yeah. And what they what they did in that is they they shrunk the timeline of things and they shrunk the space of everything as well, because there's a lot more, you know, distant travel in in the movie. William from FWS Oh yeah. William from FWS Yeah, because I think it's time dilation like Forever War does. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS i My brother-in-law has actually read most of the other books in the series. I've only read, have you? SethH Yeah, I've read all of them, so. Mm hmm. William from FWS He loves the entire series. SethH Yeah, i I it became diminishing returns toward the very end, um you know, as he's trying to kind of wrap it up, you can kind of feel that he's trying to wrap it up. William from FWS ah SethH And in terms of this one being military science fiction, yeah, Ender's Game definitely, right? Because it's, it's a different thing, because here, you we're training kids to to go to war and to think really dynamically, right? SethH And to to think about war in space, right? William from FWS Strategically, yeah. SethH um And, and there's really something to that, right? The idea that war in space would necessarily be a different way to wire your brain, because we like, um Even like if you went from playing, I'm gonna make a video game reference, right? SethH If you went from playing Doom, where you couldn't look up and down, to playing Descent or another spaceship-based game, right? William from FWS Sure. William from FWS Right. SethH All of a sudden you have to look above you and below you, um the six degrees of freedom kind of thing. William from FWS Yeah. SethH And so the idea of having kids train for that in zero-g combat games is really, really an interesting concept. William from FWS it's ah It's a concept that Japanese anime and manga has explored extensively about about you know kids piloting mecha and that kind of thing. SethH Okay. William from FWS And to me, this story really provided a foundation of why we do that. To me, having that dimensions of combat and space being differently is something that Spock says to Kirk during the Battle of the Matara Nebula in Star Trek II, the Wrath of Khan. SethH two dimensional thinking. William from FWS right and then he lowers and they go down they meet him uh i i always have to make a good you know star trek reference whenever i'm doing something but yeah but it's a book that the movie explored the book has more and i think for anyone that has seen the movie and was like i'd like to know more i think he's definitely that title and he was really inventive about showing how we could train people to think differently because in some space combat it may be SethH Yeah. SethH Mm hmm. SethH and Agreed. Yeah. William from FWS Just at all war is strategic, but it's on a totally different geography, for lack of a better term. SethH Yeah, yeah. The other thing I'd say about Ender's Game and the and the series, right, is there's the kind of the two series. There's the the more parallel series that that follows Bean, starting with Ender's Shadow, and then it goes into all the Shadow books. William from FWS Oh, yeah. SethH That is the more military science fiction stuff. It's more geopolitics, and there is some military aspect to that as well. William from FWS Huh. SethH Where in the speaker series that follows Ender, there's really not a military component. William from FWS Really, and that's always the interesting thing of the branches that descend. Like you could have a military science fiction in your universe or a book, and then you could take it somewhere else and say, okay, we're gonna explore a character within this, but they could just be someone in it. SethH Yeah. William from FWS You know, like Blade Runner has, there's like this touch of military science fiction, but we never see it. SethH Yeah. William from FWS But it's there and you can feel it. SethH Right. William from FWS They did in the 2049. SethH Mhm. SethH Mhm. William from FWS um So, everyone knows this title. I think it's a great book. I think it's a good read. Another one, because it has a movie associated, I think it's a good way to get people engaged. This is my different title. William from FWS I read it when I started Future Wars Stories and I saw the movie, of course. The movie is, of course, Edge of Tomorrow, Lived I Repeat by Tom Cruise. SethH Mhm. William from FWS It had a book called All You Need Is Kill, fantastic title, written. SethH Yeah. William from FWS It's a Japanese author um who wrote it. and it was in 2004. It was a white novel and it had a kind of a different life. Originally, it was, I guess, it, hang on. William from FWS Sometimes books in the white novel category in Japan can be very disposable. This book became very popular. It got a manga and an adaption of it, which I've never i've seen pictures of. I've never read it. And then it gets a major Hollywood movie. The book itself is different enough, but it keeps the core con but the movie kept some of the core concepts because the main character is actually Japanese, which is refreshing. SethH Right. William from FWS that it's not an American character. Because a lot of the stories we're talking about, they're Americans. And some of them actually have, like in terms of enlistment, it's America. They have a future America, which is interesting. SethH right William from FWS A lot of times it's United Planet, but yeah all you need is fuel takes place in Japan. SethH Yeah, I Yeah, I was going to mention that that that one of the interesting things and in terms of enlistment is it doesn't start with a united earth and you know the forces of earth. William from FWS Nope. SethH It's it's you know the ah and ah North Americans against like the Sino-Russian, yeah, the Commonwealth forces. William from FWS North American Commonwealth. Yeah. SethH That was fascinating. William from FWS It's... SethH but But yeah, like you said, all all you need is kill, right, is is another thing, and it it is set in Japan. William from FWS Yeah. SethH There there still is the Rita Vertaski character in there, um but, and I think she is European. William from FWS Yes. a Yes, she is. SethH um And i one of the nods back to, I always like it when a film adaptation decides to do avert references to things where the main character's name is Keiji in the novel, and then he's he's major Cage in in the movie, right? William from FWS Yeah. You have... ah Awesome. Yes. I remember that and it was like, yeah. SethH Yeah. William from FWS And it's, I really appreciate people that haveve read it. SethH Yeah, and they're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and they yeah it's one of those things where it fits in the the perfect pocket of like just different enough to really reward reading it after you've seen the movie. SethH um And i I recommend it in that direction. I almost always do just because that's the way to enjoy the movie. William from FWS Yes. SethH And then you can go and read the book. William from FWS Yeah, because like you said earlier in our previous discussion, you're reading The the Hunt for October. SethH Oh, yeah. William from FWS And then it has, of course, a very iconic movie to it. And when you get this part in parcel and you see, hey, it's like we're going to talk about this title later, but there's been a major military science fiction book that's themes it's been turned into a two-part movie and you and for us there are lovers of that you get to see like oh this is what we didn't get to see or I know the story behind that character what they said and you can kind of you know nod to yourself all you need is kill as a thing is just a solid title that was from a different perspective and it gave me I what I really do like the movie immensely but I also really love the book and I think it was the best outcome of both and SethH Mm hmm. SethH Yeah, yeah. William from FWS It's just, so and it's a cool title. SethH And this is a movie that to its credit does not get rid of the battle armor. It's just it's a slightly different thing. Like, and I like the fact that it's kind of practical. William from FWS Yeah. SethH um But I loved in the book that it talked about how essentially, you would have to train for years with this with what they call it skin, ah the skin, um in order to make it so that if you turned off all the governors on it, that you wouldn't accidentally snap your own spine. William from FWS Yeah, yeah. William from FWS Exactly, and i I think that's one of the things, when you get into the crunchy bits of technology, it's kind of like, um you know, when you think about piloting Mecha, and then they came out, the video game went in 2002, Steel Brigade, and, you know, for the original Xbox and ate up half the thing, I always wanted that. But how old the buttons, and imagine me, like, when I would see the art from BattleTech, and I'd be like, I wanna pilot a Mac, and then you're like, oh no, I would probably fall over, like Rick Hunter did in Robotech. William from FWS um So for me, I think it's great when authors include that those crunchy bits of technology. And I think the the thing about putting power armored in movies is like putting Mecca. It becomes robot jocks. William from FWS It becomes extremely expensive. Those suits were the best they could do. you know It's like a Starship Troopers. ah they weren't They couldn't afford to put those the suits in, even if it was because you know there's a whole story about that. SethH Yeah, yeah. William from FWS but SethH Well, the biggest problem with power to armor, especially something like like the the way they describe the suits as being a complete bubble around the person, right, is now you can't show the handsome face of Tom Cruise and and the beautiful face of m Emily Blunt, right? William from FWS Yes. SethH And so you're just not going to do it. William from FWS Exactly. That's a really good point. And then you get these really strange shots of like people just grimacing on the camera as the suit gets battered around. SethH Right, right, the Iron Man kind of camera, yeah. William from FWS Oh, there you go. The Iron Man camera. SethH Mm-hmm. William from FWS Beautiful catch. Yes. and you know Exactly, I think and you have actors that are there to sell performances and Sometimes when you put people in armor you take away the humanity and you can tell that story but sometimes you need to put the human back in the armor and Of course, then you could ruin it by showing Master Chief's face, but we won't get to that He has no face Gordon Freeman does not talk and Master Chief does not have the face. SethH Yeah. Canonically, he has no face. William from FWS Okay, Oh God, I love this, oh my God. SethH Oh, but I do love Freeman's mind. I love that series. William from FWS i I actually played, I don't have it on computer, I actually played Half-Life 2 on my original Xbox. SethH Wow. William from FWS That was tough. But I love, I love, love the so creative in you, of course, you know, Valve, and then she's gonna give us the third game eventually. SethH well SethH Are they, are they though? William from FWS Anyway, I'm holding, I'm trying to be optimistic here. I won because I've been waiting. How long have we been waiting for years? SethH A long time. A very long time, yeah. William from FWS Oh my God. SethH Okay, so so I think we've we've covered kind of some of the some of the basics. William from FWS Yes. SethH And I think you know those are some great recommendations. And i'm I'm looking forward to picking up a couple of those that I haven't gotten to yet. But let's start moving into some more advanced stuff. William from FWS Oh, here's where the fun begins. SethH Yes. William from FWS So when you have explored military science fiction and you think, okay, I want to be challenged a little bit. I want to see something different. I want to explore something different. This is where we're going to get into some different recommendations and they are going to be on some all the different um kind of different books. And we're going to start with the my strangest recommendation, but it is something I love so much that I consider this copy. What am I, what am I, William from FWS Best thing is my library, my military science fiction library, and that is Aliens, the Colonial Marine Technical Manual from 1996, written by Lee Brinkham Wood. SethH Hmm. Nice. William from FWS And oh my god, I don't even know how to put this into words. It's a masterwork. Because okay, so you're thinking okay, William you're recommending a technical manual, right? I'm not Scotty from enterprise. I'm not gonna center read it because it's a story in there if you've ever wondered about the aliens universe because you know James Cameron created such a beautiful Just fascinating, compelling world with the Colonial Marines. William from FWS I wanted to know everything about what they had. I wanted to know about the dropshits. SethH Mhm. William from FWS I wanted to know about the M557 APC. SethH Mhm. William from FWS I wanted to know about the M41A false rifle. I devoured that as a kid. When I saw this in 1996 at a Barnes and Noble in Wichita, Kansas, I pulled the thing out of the shelf so fast and flipped through it. William from FWS i didn' I laid down my $25 faster than ah one of the gunslingers out of Tombstone. That, because I saw this and think, this is what I've wanted for ever since I watched the movie on CBS in 1988. William from FWS I could not wait. This is my favorite movie. In fact, right above me is my original Aliens poster. SethH Mm-hmm. Nice. William from FWS Nice, it's the canceled one, not the one I actually released. And this book has everything. It has every single piece of technology that's in the movie. It explains what the world is, and it does it a way that it honors every little piece, and you're like, yes. William from FWS This is the way it really is. It's canon. And they did take some from a ah miniature game that was released years ago. Some of the material does come from that. And I think he must have gotten permission for it. But like it has quotes from soldiers. It has little lines of dialogue. It talks about stories about battles and enemies you never saw in the series. William from FWS But it's there. And you're like, I want to read more about that. And to me, that's what advanced reading does. It says, I am now really curious. I want to know more. And this technical manual, they reissued it recently and I only, you know, I bought the original 96. William from FWS I cannot recommend enough for any aliens fans, any creators of military science fiction. This is your Bible. This is what you read. SethH Yeah. William from FWS Have you, have you been able to take a look at it? SethH Yeah, yeah, yeah. I picked it up a number of weeks ago. And I just i recently, last month, the sort of the middle of last month, I posted an episode just talking about aliens with with my sister and a couple other people, um just just because we love that movie so much. William from FWS Nice. SethH and And it's funny because on that episode, I talked about the ah cryo sleep stuff or the the the hypersleep thing. William from FWS Best movie ever. William from FWS ah SethH And I had a question about like how does all this work with like how fast do the ships go and that kind of stuff. And I made a guess, which was pretty accurate. William from FWS so Yes. SethH that that then when I read in the because there's the whole section on the Sulaco in the technical manual, and I read about it and about the sort of reverse relativity that happens. William from FWS Yes. Yes. SethH um And and I was I was pretty close to right. um And I hadn't read that yet. So I was I was pretty impressed with myself. But um yeah, I mean, there's parts of it where like, if you don't want to read about the excruciating detail about the armament and and defensive capabilities of of the dropships, right, then then maybe it's not your thing, right. William from FWS You don't? SethH But it is definitely worth it for the little asides throughout that are you know talking about, oh, there there was a rumor that some people went out to this planet and and something bad happened. William from FWS Yes. SethH And then there's a whole like congressional subcommittee um report about what happened on early 426 in Aliens. William from FWS Yes. SethH And that's really, really cool. William from FWS It's really cool and it's so well written that to me, it's like it's like a dream. and don't It's almost too good for us to have. SethH Yeah, it's good stuff. William from FWS Really good stuff. it's To me, I will compare it if any Star Trek fans are listening, Trekkies out there, it's comparable to me to the 1990s Guide to the Enterprise D. SethH Yeah, I had that one as well when I was a kid. William from FWS so sp but SethH Yeah. William from FWS Yeah. Oh, oh my God. I love that. That thing is loving, loving. SethH Yeah. William from FWS They're both very loving and they do it in a way that people should look at this and go, this is how it's done. This is the way to do technical manuals, but it's a really weird recommendation, but I've read it covered a cover to cover. SethH Yeah, me too. William from FWS Yep. And I love that you have picked it up and read it. So let's talk about other aliens title because who doesn't love, I mean, I love talking about aliens. This is, it was published kind of as a graphic novel, but it really isn't. William from FWS I kind of flipped through it today, actually dug it out. SethH Yeah, it's more like a novella or a novelette even, maybe. William from FWS It is a novella. Yeah, it is Aliens Tribe from 1992. SethH Yeah. William from FWS And this is this is something special in the Aliens universe because they have we Alien fans have been through a lot. William from FWS We all have shared trauma. SethH True. William from FWS But I want to go back to a time when Aliens came out, there was a gap between it and Alien 3, which I saw in the theater and cried, not for because Ripley died, because spoilers, Ripley dies, but also because they had taken away Hicks from me and they took away Newt. SethH Yes, yep. William from FWS So Dark Horse gets the license before this, prints out a black and white comic, six issues. I bought it at the time, I was in grade school, and it was intoxicating. Then they put a colored version out that was airbrushed, and it's phenomenal. SethH This is an adaptation of Aliens? William from FWS No, these are just what happens after aliens. SethH Gotcha, okay. William from FWS Sorry, I should have prefaced that more. So Dark Horse gets the license, they decide what happens after Aliens, what happens to Newt, what happens to Hicks. So they send it about 15 years, Newt's 18, 19, 20, somewhere around there, and what happens to Hicks. They put out these two comics in the 90s, I think, in the late 80s, early 90s, and eventually they do Earth War. William from FWS So they kind of tell a story about and about what happened to these characters and pick up the story. And it is so phenomenally great that I thought, oh, Alien 3 is going to be this story. No, it's not. It's not. It's not. The cake is a lie and you that got ruined for me. William from FWS So, but what I took solace in was these, these dark horse comics, which they didn't do what other comics do. We're like, okay, we gotta adjust all this to alien three. They didn't do that. SethH Yeah. William from FWS They just quit talking about Ripley, but alien tribe comes out in 92. It tells a story that should have been a movie. It still should be a movie. SethH Yeah. William from FWS It's how can I put this? It's so written. It haunted me the first time I read it as a kid, now as a teenager when I read this. William from FWS It haunted me. I still think about it. SethH Hmm. Is it the the fact that you get inside the aliens heads a little bit? William from FWS You get inside the aliens' heads, the team members that are comprised, because what, let me kind of set this up. So it's about and a medical station. And this medical station has an outbreak, because it's aliens universe, right? This happens throughout. So the Colonial Marines sent a special team in that's going to sanitize. It reminds me a little bit of the plot of the xenophobe ah video game from 1987. My favorite arcade game. Reminds me a little bit of that. William from FWS But they go in and these characters occupy how they can eliminate the alien threat, the connections to the characters, and they're all flawed. They're all beautiful. They're all flawed. And it tells the aliens, especially the character of rat and the, you know, boards and the rest of them. And I first time read it, I was like, this book horrified me. I want to read it again. SethH Yeah. William from FWS But it is, it is this work in aliens that is so special and so unique. I just, I could not believe that it's never been turned into anything because it's that good. SethH Yeah, I thought it was terrific. I picked it up along with the the technical manual and and lent it to a a buddy of mine because it does have that I think I think it's probably if you looked at the word count is probably like novel at longer than short story much shorter than a book. William from FWS Yeah. SethH And then but there's these full color just great dark horse comics kind of art in it um that that makes it worth it for for the art and the yeah, yeah, very cool. William from FWS David Dorman did the art, yeah. They won a Bram Stoker award for it. To anyone listening, this is the thing that you've always wanted from Alien Years. It almost virtues into like cosmic horror a little bit, but it's everything you've ever wanted. and To me, it's it's one of the most special things ever put out in the Aliens universe. and It's the only thing in the Aliens universe that ever won a Bram Stoker award. so Well, I don't know how much it is now. William from FWS I really don't. I've never, I haven't priced. it I bought it originally. There's a limited edition. I want to get my hands on by it's probably pretty like expensive. Another. SethH So when you when you first started um introducing the the technical manual ah and you were talking about something, a prize thing in your possession, I thought you were going to talk about World War Robot. William from FWS Oh my God. We're, we're robot. Oh my God. Yeah, i bought that on I bought that because that's another thing that I don't quite know how to explain it to anyone. SethH yeah William from FWS It's that thing it's like you have to know a thing to understand a thing. Not to be very dune about it, but I picked up a robot and I wanted to know more. And of course, it's basically told through the backstory of figures, very expensive figures. William from FWS And the guy, Ashley, Ashley is his name. I have it somewhere. And I was like, oh my God, what is this? An art book with a pulse with you can smell the metal and blood in those pages. SethH Yeah. Yeah. William from FWS It's so if you do you own it or if you flip through it or Yes. SethH I flipped through it. I got i got it through interlibrary loan, I think, or or from, yeah. And and yeah, it's it's like it's like a big portfolio of of art about a robot war. SethH um and And yeah, and the the the it's it's really, really high quality artwork, right? William from FWS on Mars on Luna and... Oh. SethH And then just a little bit of text. William from FWS But yeah, you know, the character of Noam de Plume and I ended up looking at his like 3A, I think it's the name of the company. I ended up looking up a lot of the stuff they did. And I'm like, why has this never been turned into anything? William from FWS It was going to be turned into a movie or TV series that never got off the ground. And I don't know why. And they had some heartbreaking stuff on there. SethH Oh yeah. William from FWS It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it teases you what you want to know. It just, you know, says, okay. And he's never done much else with it. But even if you buy the figures and he has little blurbs on his old site where you can pick it up and I always wanted to write a short story in it and never did it, but yeah we're robots. William from FWS weird It's a weird, interesting thing. It's definitely a deep cut in military science fiction. SethH Yeah. Mm hmm. William from FWS um Another interesting title, because one thing I think we need to talk about in military science fiction in just a bit, talk about kind of context. You have everything before Star Wars and you have everything after. SethH Yes. William from FWS and Because before science fiction, before we get to the Star Wars era, science fiction, especially in the 60s and 70s, gets kind of trippy. SethH Hmm. William from FWS Kind of different. And you have this time period, and so some of the military science fiction works that exist there, especially we're talking about Vietnam. There's a lot of, what's the right word? It's complex. It's complicated. The relationship. You get Star Wars, like, okay, space wars cool, and it's got lasers. And so military science fiction explodes in the 80s. William from FWS um Did you also get the popularity of war gaming and that's kind of seen I was in as a kid so you get things like mech warrior and that kind of thing and So to me we we we look at titles a deep cut that's right before Star Wars is written by two the greatest authors in science fiction Neville and Pranell and They wrote a book called the Moton God's eye in 1974 which of course is a continuation within his co dominion universe if I'm saying it right and SethH Hmm. SethH Hmm. William from FWS It has two sequels. I've only read The Gripping Hand. The Mote God's Eye talks about contact between the Second Empire of Man, kind of coming out of a big galactic civil war. It's an interesting military organization that's more kind of like 18th century, 19th century kind of philosophy. They discovered this alien race and how that would go down with first contact. And I think Robert Hemlone actually said it's like a really good idea of how it would go down. William from FWS ah it's It's a classic. It is deep and a very thick book, but I read it in high school and I never ever forgot it. It's definitely something that has a lot of things in it and it's pre-Star Wars, but it has some really nice elements within it. William from FWS I recommend it, but it' it's definitely a book more about alien contact with a military organization meeting that contact and how that would go down with with a kind of futuristic mankind kind of dealing, coming out of ah ah wars and that kind of thing. SethH Hmm. Hmm. Okay. SethH Okay. And that's one that i'm I'm not familiar with. I mean, I recognize the title, but haven't read it. William from FWS Yes, I fully recommend it. Also, we're gonna talk about a book that you have to pick up in the middle of this year. And the second book, um i didn't I didn't start off in the middle. I mean, I didn't start off with the first book. I started off the second, and that is Star Tide Rising of the Uplifter. I think there's six books in it now by David Brann. And it's from 1983, has fantastic cover art. I know that's kind of a weird thing to say, but it does sell books. William from FWS And it's the second book of six of the Uplifter trilogy, which the term Uplift has now been throughout. and we I think there's a little bit of, I think Mass Effect borrowed a little bit from the Uplift universe, but it's about the Earthship Streaker and the neo the Uplifted dolphins and chimpanzees and the human crew trying to avoid a very large problem and on a crashed ship. William from FWS and kind of interrelation between humans in a much bigger universe they still roll across. And it was actually turned into a role-playing game at one point. SethH Hmm. Hmm. William from FWS um I recommend the Uplift books. there ah There is actually a Uplift war book. It's not much of a military science fiction book. But Star Trek Rising has military characters and kind of military situations, but it's so deep and and that his universe is fantastic. William from FWS Anyway, i there's a first book, Star, oh, I can't remember the title, but Sun Diver. SethH Sun Diver. William from FWS I actually recommend, I actually read this, I actually read Star Trek writing first. SethH Yeah. William from FWS I bought it in his bookstore and I actually think, I think it's fine to pick it up there. What do you think? SethH Yeah, i I wish I had because I did not enjoy Sun Diver and that set me to, i I'm not a huge fan of sort of Star Tide Rising. William from FWS Either. SethH I know a lot of people, it's their favorite. One of these years I'll revisit it. There were a couple of fantastic scenes in it, but there there was something about it that I just bounced off of and and and I think it was partially due to not really enjoying Sun Diver. William from FWS Oh yes. William from FWS It's dense. SethH I love the concepts. William from FWS Oh yes. SethH um It's just some of the execution of it. you know I don't know. It didn't quite work for me, but I know a lot a lot of people love it. William from FWS And it's it's it's, as I said, if you were a great fan of Mass Effect and how deep that universe is, there's touches of shared reality, I think. There's somehow those two connected, especially if you're like, love to listen to the Codex of Mass Effect. SethH Hmm. SethH Hmm. William from FWS Let's talk about a military science fiction book that's enjoying its moment. And I'm very grateful for that because I grew up in the 1984 version of the film with the Harkonnen Bikini. That is Dune. Thank you. William from FWS Thank you. SethH Yes. William from FWS oh That is Dune by the master Frank Herbert and I've read all six of the original series. SethH yes William from FWS I don't really like the books his son has been writing. SethH Hmm. William from FWS ah My favorite is God Emperor with the fish speakers which are an interesting all-female military but Dune is one of the greatest works of human imagination ever written and it was a book that got rejected by everyone. William from FWS I'm very proud owner of several different editions. I actually bought an organ when I was an Ashland once. I bought a autobiography i bought a biography of him and he's an interesting guy. SethH Well, it has it has some some Northwest roots, so yeah. William from FWS He does. Tacoma, right? Let's reach from his Tacoma. SethH ah Yeah, Washington definitely, but but I think the the book was partially inspireded inspired by the the Florence sand dunes. William from FWS Yes, it is, yes, it is. SethH so William from FWS Everybody knows, doom we have the 84 Lynch movie, which we could get off on a whole tangent. We have the new movies by Denis Niveau with Chrissy de Blayden around 2049. William from FWS I was super excited to see him take that, and he did a masterful job. SethH Mm hmm. Yeah. William from FWS And of course, a lot of people have come to me in my real life and said, hey, William, what are we doing? I'm like, whoa, you need to be careful because the spice, she's strong. SethH Yeah. William from FWS And you will forever, like this very day, sometimes when I also do desert planet, because that movie gets in your head. SethH Arrakis to desert planet, yes. William from FWS It is the year 10,191. Anyway, I grew up with that movie probably was probably wrong with me as an adult, but I like the new version. I will actually think that, but the music by Toto is still magical. William from FWS So, you know, fight me on that. SethH Hmm. William from FWS but SethH You don't have to, to fight me on Toto. I love Toto. William from FWS Excellent. SethH Yeah. William from FWS So Dude is a military science fiction book and tangently does not. SethH Yeah. I was going to say when, when, when I saw this on the list, I thought, really? But, but then I thought, no, I mean the Sartokar and the, and the Fedican, you know, these are military units. William from FWS They are military units. the way that the It is one of the more interesting and imaginative ways that space combat could go down, especially with ah with the spacing guild. SethH Mm-hmm. William from FWS And the movie does, the current movie does a really interesting job of showing how alien that war could be. It's not exactly the way it's projected in the book. SethH Mm-hmm. William from FWS It's better than the 84 version, except that it's got you know Patrick Stewart with a pug and a gun screaming for the duke. Which is, in the the anyway, sorry. SethH Yes. William from FWS I can talk about that movie forever. SethH And that's epic. William from FWS forever That's epic, and he screamed for the end. I'm like, I shall follow you. um But you know in the fact there's knife combat, the fact that the shields work, but if you shoot a lasgun into him, that can cause an atomic explosion. And I was like, it's not military sanction science fiction, but it is. And the later books are really not, but they kind of are. So it's a really different deep cut. I think it's an interesting way to explore military modernization within a very, very unique universe. William from FWS I mean, there's Tolkien and then there's, you know, Herbert. I mean, that's basically the two best works of of human imagination ever done. SethH Hmm. William from FWS I cannot imagine what went on in his head. SethH Hmm. William from FWS And if you love Herbert, and the rest of his books are awesome. The whipping star, the whipped star, whipping star is really good. SethH I've never read any of his other stuff, or or the rest of the Dune series. William from FWS you SethH So I'm gonna I'm gonna read Dune Messiah before the third movie comes out. William from FWS Do that. A children dude is really boring. God Emperor is my favorite. SethH I've heard a lot of people say that God Emperor is great. So so it's just some homework to do to get there. William from FWS Chapter House is really fascinating. um And of course, he was going to write a seventh book. SethH Okay. William from FWS His son took the notes. So if you want to complete it, let's talk about an author I met. um And this is an interesting book because we talk about the children of the original three, right? William from FWS We talk about children of Starship Troopers. Well, did we get a direct child? That's Armor by John Stakeley. Now, I met him by accident. SethH Good one. Yeah. William from FWS ah He was at DFWCon, and I ran into him, not knowing exactly who he was until we started talking. Now, this was well before Future War Stories. If I had known what I had a rare opportunity to meet this man, I would have loved to pick his brain. William from FWS He was always going to do a sequel. He never did a sequel to this book. Armor, the reason it's in here is because armor is He wanted to see more action of the war against the bugs and Starship Troopers. So he writes this book, the book's from 84. It is, the first of it is a powerhouse. It is, it's visceral. And there's armor, there's these guns called the Blazers, there's these ant-like creatures they fight. Oh my god, the first part of this book is everything you ever wanted to see in Starship Troopers. And he writes it so incredibly well and it's just visceral combat. William from FWS And then it switches to a story about Space Pirate in the middle of it. SethH Yeah. William from FWS It's like a thud. You get like a different book. SethH Yeah. Yeah. William from FWS Yeah. SethH I kept wondering, is this going to connect back in? William from FWS Pick up a different book. What's going on here? SethH Yeah. William from FWS Did another book get mixed in? SethH Yeah. William from FWS I don't know how it got sold to an editor. And DAW Publishing is really great on how they ever got this book past an editor and being like, dude, because then it picks up. SethH Yeah. i I was curious if it was a fix up of like three novellas, but I don't know. William from FWS not according to what I read. I think he just, because you know it comes back, no spoilers, it does. SethH Hmm. SethH It does, yeah, yeah. William from FWS And for anyone that's reading it, hang in there. But it really should have been two different books. And I agree with that. I thought, did he like, he needed to fill a commitment, hey, I got like 200 more pages on a space pirate, throw that in. And it's not like a, group you know, the space pirate's interesting. He's not Captain Harlock or anything. He's not Jack Sparrow, but it is fairly interesting. But armor's only, I put it on my more advanced list because why he does have some really great combat and it's pretty easy. It is that middle part that's really hard. So I think it's, I think it's a good book, but I definitely think William from FWS It's not really a great beginning title. I really like him. I like the way he writes. I wish he had done more and he was going to write a sequel, but unfortunately we lost him. And he's from my area of the world. William from FWS He's, you know, he's from here. He's from DFW Metroplex and we lost. SethH Yeah, i I really enjoyed that. And to me, like, when when I was talking about the Marco Close title being just sort of like the the standard basics of what I want from from military science fiction without a lot deeper. This one armor really did have more of that layer to it, where it talked about combat fatigue, and it talked about like, celebrity soldiers and, and and you know, just like, SethH I don't know, it was it was much more visceral, much more connected to like the psyche of the soldier. William from FWS Exactly. And him getting into, I think he called himself the engine when he gets ready for battle, he flips the switch. SethH Yeah. William from FWS I mean, there's like, You don't know much about the world they live in. From what I remember, I read this remember I read this book, Poolside, at one point when I first started Future War Stories, and I remember going, my God, you know this is kind of the book you want Starship Troopers to be. SethH Mm hmm. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS And it's the way one person described it to me. I fully recommend it. it's it's It's a really good book. It has amazing cover art, actually. I know that's kind of strange to say that. SethH Yeah, yeah, but I've seen a couple different covers and they're both great. So yeah, yeah. William from FWS book the gra You're like wow the forever war I mean the forever were cover art can be really weird depending what year But yeah, that's kind of I have some other like I always recommend one weird title I'm just gonna put a quick shout out to is the Goshen shell graphic novel if you like SethH Hmm. William from FWS if you like the 1995 movie, but the they have a really interesting, different take on military science fiction in terms of combat and cyber. SethH Hmm. William from FWS Dark Horse did publish it. It's by Shiro, of course, who is did Appleseed. Big fan. It's a graphic novel, but it's dense, and he's got a lot of technical aspect, and he's a really learned man. William from FWS He did a lot of great work, and I recommend it. It's it's a good read. It was put up by Dark Horse and combined. that's my other deep cut it's it's it's graphic novel it's a real one but i think it's an interesting take on kind of the cyberpunk military science fiction because you will get them intersecting at different points and no one i think has ever done as well as he does but anyway that's my last one on that i have not SethH Nice, nice. i I know that you had at some point mentioned the Honor Harrington series, but I think you haven't read any of those. Yeah, I've read two or three of them. And that's that's set in the, you know, like, Future Earth, Future Empire, the Manticorian, I think Manticorian ah is the like the the empire um and and it's set in the the navy so it's you know it's ships and and space battle um they're well done i you know if if you like that kind of uh that kind of thing where you like you want to have exciting space battles you've got it just don't get attached to any of the characters because david weber does not mind killing him off William from FWS Yes. William from FWS No. ah Yeah. SethH the ah The other thing I want to mention was the Vorkosigan saga, um where Miles Vorkosigan is in the military and and then in a brand of mercenaries. and And so there are military aspects to a lot of the books, but that series is very varied, where where one book will be just like, this is ah this is a romance, you know and and and other ones are much more you know about fighting and combat and things. William from FWS And I think it's always interesting to have a series of books like that. The Honor Harrington series is probably my scarlet letter, being in a military science fiction researcher, for lack of a better term, with what I am. And I've never read them. But I will say this, if I'm ever in Japan, I'm buying all the, all the Honor Harrington covers are awesome in Japan, and the Forever War cover art in Japan is amazing. SethH Okay. William from FWS So Google it, look at it. The cover art in Japan for the Forever War is, I went on a copy of it just to have it in my collection. But the Honor Harrington series, I keep thinking it's gonna be, eventually one day it's gonna be a Netflix series or something. William from FWS And it has, there's an anime that's heroes of the galactic legend, or there's an anime series that's really close. SethH Oh, Legend of the Galactic Heroes. William from FWS That's it. SethH I i read one of those this year. William from FWS And it kind of reminds me, I don't know why Honor Harrington, when I've ever looked at it, I was like, huh, that, so, SethH Yeah. SethH Yes. William from FWS That's a series I think anyone, it's it's obviously an iconic series. I don't even know if it's still ongoing. I mean, a lot of books. SethH Yeah, I don't know either. There's a lot of books in it. William from FWS its you know It's published by one of the bigger military science fiction publishers. And it's a book series that um you can go into the Barnes and Noble or anywhere else, pick up a copy of the first one and get into it. William from FWS I know people that love it, and I know people that don't, but it's a series I need to i need to read. SethH Hmm. Nice. SethH Perfect. All right. well So that's that's the end of ah sort of advanced science fiction. I do want to invite or advanced. Sorry, that's the. yeah Give it a B. So I guess that that's a wrap on advanced military science fiction, and I will invite listeners. I'm sure there's somebody out there who's screaming at the player that we missed their favorite title. So absolutely lay it on us in the in the comments or on social media, because I'm i'm sure that William would like to to hear of anything he doesn't know about, and I certainly would too, because I've i've already gotten a couple recommendations here for for further reading. William from FWS Yes. SethH But it's really fascinating how military science fiction can really talk about, you know, the present. um And it's it's just what science fiction does, right? Where, like you were talking about Battlestar Galactica, the reboot, William from FWS yes yes not even close SethH And um I was talking to a friend of mine who's not a big fan of reboots of things, um especially things that he likes. And I'm like, yeah, but like they used that show to talk about 9-11, to talk about like post-9-11 politics and and insurgencies and suicide bombings and stuff. And like that's not something you ever would have done in the original. And um and so, yeah. SethH Yeah, the the the situation in the world changes and then the military science fiction changes with it. Although you still get stuff that's more standard, um you know, that you would have expected that you could have could have been written in the 60s, but we're writing it now and it's still entertaining. William from FWS Yeah, and I think Amazon, if you look at Amazon titles for people writing ebooks, you will see just how popular military science fiction is. SethH Yeah. William from FWS And it's just, it'd be impossible to do a deep dive on that. And that's been one that's been one area I think that really has been revolutionized by the digital publishing revolution. SethH Yeah. William from FWS to me. SethH Yeah. William from FWS I think it's one of the genres that really exploded. But you're right. I mean, I think that Balster Galactica is a good example of how, you know, before we talk about Star Trek, you know, covering social issues in a science fiction setting, and they've been doing that since 1966, but Balster Galactica comes along and allowed people to grieve. SethH Yeah, yeah, yeah. William from FWS a lot of people to grieve. I know I processed, I still remember the first night. I remember when the colonies fell and watching that on NBC when they aired it, and because I didn't have cable at the time. SethH Yeah. William from FWS Actually, was it was, and then I'll never forget when they were leaving some of those people behind that their ships can't jump, and then they're begging and screaming to them. SethH Oh, it's intense. Yeah. William from FWS I was like, Roland D. Moore does not take it easy on anyone, and they had to rein him in a lot of times on Star Trek. He wanted to make the Dominion war much darker, and they wouldn't let him, so what'd he do? He did Balestar. SethH yeah William from FWS So, sorry, I don't wanna get into, love this about Balestar Galactica, but to me, it's, I grew up with the original series, and I was like, I saw this, I was like, oh, this is how you do it, this is the way. SethH Yeah, I agree. I and like to me, it's it's so much better. um Although, to be fair, I have not watched the original Battlestar Galactica since I was a kid. So. William from FWS Well, you know, yeah, um they did have a better jacket. That's the way the jacket was pretty awesome. And the vibe, pretty sweet. SethH That was pretty, pretty sweet. Yeah. William from FWS And then the fact the music they did with the original Pegasus and all that. SethH Mm hmm. William from FWS I grew up with that series, I watched, I watched that in Buck Rogers as a kid. And so, oh yeah, Buck Rogers. SethH Oh, me too, yeah. William from FWS And so, um and fantastic space fighter designs, the Viper and the and the ah the one from, um SethH Mm-hmm. William from FWS Buck Rogers, the Terahawk, or whatever it's really called. Fantastic Starfighters. Fantastic designs. SethH Yeah. William from FWS I was worried when they redid that series. They were like, they're going to get rid of the Viper. Oh no, they brought them back. SethH Yeah. William from FWS I cried at the Nobel Sargolotica, the reboot, and they played the original music, and I just sat there. SethH Yeah. William from FWS Because I actually never watched theirs. I bought it all on DVD, and that's how I watched it. SethH Mm. William from FWS That was a commitment. SethH Oh, nice. Yeah, yeah. William from FWS But anyway, ah i I encourage everyone, you know reading is such a pleasure and I encourage everyone to pick up a book or download a book and read something that you're gonna get lost in and military science fiction is a great place SethH Sweet. William from FWS Just to experience that and i've had a lot of joy in my life reading these stories and i'm i feel very humbled by some of the creators that have lent their imaginations and ideas to us there's some phenomenal works within this that may think oh it's just you know killing bugs and off-world planets it can be so much more i've cried and i've laughed in some of these pages so i really encourage everyone to explore to explore the room. SethH Yeah. SethH Well, cool. William, thank you so much for doing this. And ah where can people find you? William from FWS So, Future War Stories is can be googled and Future War Stories is on Blogger at the moment. it does not have any I deleted all my social media quite recently, so it does not exist anywhere else. SethH Okay. William from FWS But it is on as on Blogger and it's Future War Stories. and Drop by, make a comment, and you know give me something else to research. I always love it. and just SethH Yeah. William from FWS Respond back and say, hey, have you thought about this? I have some wonderful commenters that give me pathways to to research. So please drop by and enjoy. SethH Awesome. And if you ever get the podcast off the ground, so I'll have to have you back on to talk about it. William from FWS Yes, I'm still trying to come up with a snappy title for that. SethH Mm, I'll think about it, I'm pretty good at those. William from FWS Yes. SethH So, all right, thanks so much, and well I'm sure we'll talk again, all right. William from FWS Thank you. Indeed, anytime. SethH Yeah, bye now.