SethH Hi there, and welcome back to the Hugo's There podcast. I'm your host, Seth Heasley, and this time it's another zoomed out author deep dive. This time about an important author in my life, Lloyd Alexander. And my guest for this episode is Jared Crossley. Hi there, Jared. Thanks for joining me. Jared Crossley Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me on, sir. SethH Yeah. And, um you know, I discovered you, I think I discovered your blog at some point when I was thinking about, you know, it'd be cool to find a Lloyd Alexander expert. And I found your blog and then I found the biography video on on YouTube. So why don't you tell my listeners about yourself? Jared Crossley Yeah. So, um, I'm currently a professor of children's literature at the Ohio State University. Um, but my connection to both children's literature and Lloyd Alexander started, um, way back when I was in middle school, um, just became a ah big fan of the Chronicles of Prudane, um, which he wrote. And, uh, because of that, I ended up when I was an undergrad at Brigham Young University making a documentary that's a biography. Jared Crossley about Lloyd Alexander, which you just referenced um that's on YouTube. But that kind of opened some doors to the children's literature world for me. And I ended up deciding to ah pursue ah doctoral work and and getting a degree in children's literature. Jared Crossley And then now that's what I do for a living is I i teach children's literature courses at at the Ohio State University. So um that's me in a nutshell. um Yeah. SethH Nice. And b b BYU has the Lord Alexander Museum kind of thing, right? Jared Crossley Yeah, so when Lloyd Alexander passed away, um he had a couple of of good friends that were both professors of children's literature at BYU. And they had negotiated with him that a lot of his personal belongings would be donated to the university. Jared Crossley And so they actually have an exhibit in the library on campus there that's um a lot of things from his office, his typewriter, a lot of his books, some artwork. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley um and just personal mementos of Lloyd Alexander. It's a pretty neat to exhibit there. SethH Hmm. Yeah, that'd be something I'd be interested to see was, was Lord Alexander LTS. Jared Crossley He was not, no, ah his only connection to the university was these these two professors that were just good personal friends of his. SethH Okay. SethH and Okay. Found a good landing place for, for his stuff. that's That's cool. Jared Crossley Yeah, yeah. SethH So let's go ahead and kind of do the, um, intro to Lloyd Alexander. what What should people know about him? When you when you look at on on the back of, you know, you, well, let's see, let's put it this way. SethH When you think fantasy books, you kind of tend to think Northern Europe, right? You think you think the British Isles, and predain is sort of this fantasy Wales kind of thing. Jared Crossley Right. SethH And you look at his photo on the back of the books and you think, oh, he's Welsh, you know, or like, like, he just it just't just doesn't scream American to me, but he is this American author who is, you know, into all of that. Jared Crossley Right. Right. SethH And I'll let you get into it. Sorry. Jared Crossley Sure, sure. No, that's great. um So yeah, Lloyd Alexander was actually born in Philadelphia. um So as you said, an American author, ah lived his whole life right there in in Philadelphia area, um with the exception of during World War II. So he was born in the 1920s. And then when World War II came around, he he enrolled in the army. um I think he was actually only 17 at the time. um But he He had this desire to do something noble, to do something good. And and so he decided to enroll um to fight for the US Army. And during that, he was actually stationed for a short time in the country of Wales, um which is one of the connections that that he has to the Welsh mythology and and that Northern Europe that you were talking about. Jared Crossley um and then he was moved into Germany very briefly but then went to France um and spent some time in France both at the end of the war and then kind of post-war and that's actually where he met his wife Janine which then they they immigrated back to Philadelphia and then he spent the rest of his life living there with with Janine and their daughter Madot in Philadelphia area. Jared Crossley So an American author, um however, um as you mentioned, when you think of fantasy, you typically think of, you know, these these British authors, J.R. Tolkien, C.S. Jared Crossley Lewis. But at the time that Alexander wrote The Chronicles of Pudane in the 1960s, there wasn't a lot of American fantasy. um There was, L. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley frank el Frank Baum did a lot of great things with kind of the beginning of an American type of fantasy. SethH who Jared Crossley um But Lloyd's work um kind of bridged the gap between European fantasy where the Chronicles of Pardane are based on Welsh mythology, um however, being written and published here in the United States um and kind of creating a a new claim on Americans being able to write a a high fantasy. Jared Crossley um SethH Yeah, Jared Crossley So yeah, that's that's briefly a little bit about him and his background. I'm sure we'll we'll dive more into it. SethH yeah and and I'll try that again. That's that's the trouble with doing with morning podcasts is all the frogs are still present. Jared Crossley so SethH um and And how prolific was was Lord Alexander? did he Was he mostly writing in the sort of young adult children's literature? Jared Crossley Yeah, so ah interesting question. So he actually started out writing as adults. um He had this, he had grand ideas of becoming um the great american novelist um kind of he wanted to write you know the the war and peace of america um but as he was working for i think it was a period of seven years that he had four different manuscripts that he wrote during that time and he kept trying to publish them and kept getting a rejection after rejection after rejection and then one day SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley It dawned on him that he was trying to write about these these big ideas that he didn't really have a lot of personal experience with. SethH Right. Jared Crossley And so he decided to change his his strategy. And he wrote a book about being a big bank messenger, um which is the first job that he had post-high school as a teenager. Jared Crossley and It was called, And Let the Credit Go. um And he was published. And that was his first book that he was able to publish. It was not written for young adults. It was written for adults. And he published five or six books for adults um during the first decade or so of his career. But then in the early 1960s, he kind of made this shift. Jared Crossley And he um was was trying to write a book about a cat that could travel through through time. um he He thought, you know, this idea that ah cats have nine lives, maybe those nine lives are nine different periods of time and they can travel SethH Right. Jared Crossley through these these different lives of theirs. And so that book is titled Time Cat. And just the way that the book ah worked, he found that it was ah that it flowed the best for him if he had a child protagonist that would go with this cat to these different lives. Jared Crossley um And then as he wrote that book, he he said, I found that the best way I could say what I was trying to say was through this form of children's books. um And so then for the rest of his career, he stayed in that, you know, today we we call it kind of middle grade, but it's kind of the young adult or upper children's literature category of books. SethH Yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay, so let's, let's talk about sort of Alexander 101. Where should people start? Jared Crossley Yeah, so he's best known for The Chronicles of Predain, which we've mentioned multiple times. um And most people, when I mentioned that series, most people are not familiar with The Chronicles of Predain. Jared Crossley However, a lot of people have heard of the series from the Black Cauldron, which was adapted into a Disney animated film. SethH Right. Jared Crossley um It's very loosely based on the second book in that series. SethH You know, with pieces of the first one. Jared Crossley It's a series of Right, right. and It's a series of five books um published all between 1964 and 1969. Two of the books in that series ended up getting Newbery Recognition, which is the top children's award for books written by American authors published in the United States. Jared Crossley um The second book, The Black Cauldron, got a Newbery Honor. And then the fifth and final book, The High King, won the Newbery Medal in 1969 as the top children's book for that year. So that that series is is what Lloyd Alexander is is best known for. And most of the people that are familiar with him, it is because of those those books. SethH Yeah, and, you know, I have to admit that every time I see on a, you know, a Facebook page, or, you know, a group, that kind of thing, where somebody says, Hey, can somebody recommend books for my, you know, middle school boy who wants, wants fantasy books? SethH I'm like, you want predain, predain is where you should go. um Because, you know, for me, and I've, if folks want more of my thoughts on this series, you can I did a comfort reads episode about ah the Chronicles of predain, just because during 2020, when we were all Jared Crossley Right. SethH home I thought, I want to read something easy and comfortable. And so I ordered the first two volumes of the of the Chronicles. There was a 50th anniversary trade paperback version. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH I ordered the first two. And I deeply regret that I didn't just order the entire series because now I cannot get the High King. Jared Crossley Right, right. SethH It's out of print. um And so I have the first four, and I'm missing the last one. So I'm i'm always on the lookout for that one. I put a Google alert out. um for it. But, but yeah, it's, it's, I encountered them first in, I think it was either fifth or sixth grade, and all my friends were reading them, we were just passing them around. And um i yeah I remember reading all five books, basically in that, you know, year and a half, two year stretch. um I started reading them, I think I was the one who got my friends started on them, because my mom just came down to my room and dropped the book of three on on my bed. SethH and said, and you should read this, your sister liked it. And um so that that I was off and running and I just absolutely adored them. And it's funny because as an adult, I haven't been a huge fan of fantasy. SethH And you'd think that that that this series might have started me on on more of a path to really enjoy fantasy, but I i don't know. Jared Crossley Right. SethH other fantasy didn't measure up somehow because it is that perfect pocket of very easy to read. um you know not it doesn't It doesn't go on for pages and pages about the topography or the trees. Jared Crossley Right. SethH um And so it reads a lot easier than something like The Hobbit, um which is a you know similar target demographic, I think. Jared Crossley Sure, sure. Jared Crossley yeah and Yeah, and I like what you said about you know recommending the series. ah Really, this is a great series to recommend those middle school um readers of that enjoy fantasy. Jared Crossley You know you have the the Harry Potter and the Percy Jackson series. Those are so popular that SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley Those kids that like fantasy probably have already read those, and if they haven't, they at least are familiar with those. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um But this The Chronicles of Predain, it's right up that same alley, but they are, because they're older books, um they're less well known than a lot of these other series. Jared Crossley um But I've found that those people that enjoy those fantasy books really enjoy these books sometimes even at a deeper level. um ah I once heard ah Jim Jacobs who's a former professor of children's literature and Lloyd Alexander expert he talking about these books he said you know there's a lot of books that you can read and and enjoy and then you just move on from them he said but there's something about these books that that they just get under your skin and stay a part of you. Jared Crossley They stay with you in a way that a lot of other enjoyable books don't. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um And for me, that that really resonates. I think that these books, I mean, obviously, here I am, a professor of children's literature, and it all really goes back to reading The Chronicles of Predain. Jared Crossley That was that was what started my path on this this journey of where I'm at today. SethH yeah Yeah, and and you know i had um I had kind of fallen off reading. i've I've talked about this a number of times to the point that somebody left a review saying I could stop talking about it. But you know I read those in in sixth grade or so, and I think I might have read them once or twice more, but then I didn't really read them again until I was an adult. SethH And then was just delighted how much I could fall right back into them and just felt like that sixth grade self again. Jared Crossley All right. SethH um and And just, you know, I've listened to them on audio several times. There's good audio versions as well. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um And so there's there's something that, you know, I look forward to reading to grandkids someday. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH I read them to my son. Jared Crossley Yeah, and you know and that's something very similar with me. you know I read them in middle school, and I read them a few times at that point, um because they were so impactful on on my life at that time. Jared Crossley But then you get into high school, and you get all these assigned readings. And and i I kind of lost that love of reading throughout high school. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley um And then after high school, a couple of years went by, and I saw those copies of the Chronicles of Perdain sitting in my room, and I thought, I had to read those again. Jared Crossley It's been ah it's been a few years and I picked them up and it relit that love of reading for me um as well. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley So, yeah. SethH Yeah. So I would say that, you know, if you if you're someone who is a fan of like the Lord of the Rings movies, but has tried to read the books and found them too dense, um you you would definitely have an easier time with the Chronics of Perdain just because they're they're they're lighter. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um You know, the a criticism of them would be they're kind of not a knockoff, but but you know, ah a very similar thing, right? And basically all of that kind of fantasy owes something to the Lord of the Rings. Jared Crossley Right. Jared Crossley Yeah, and and I actually heard someone one time ask Lloyd Alexander about that. He said, you know, this feels similar in a lot of ways to Lord of the Rings. How much were you inspired by the Lord of the Rings? And his response was, was ah and I'm paraphrasing, of course, um but he said something along the lines of you know We all, ah fantasy authors, we're all pulling from the same pot of story. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley um And so obviously where he was ah pulling from Welsh for mythology, and that was that was more of his true inspiration was Welsh from mythology rather than Tolkien. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley But Tolkien also was trying to create a mythology for Britain um which also has those same roots, right? And so they are going to be similar in a lot of ways because they come from that same ah same pot of ah a Welsh mythology or British mythology. SethH Yeah. um So let's let's talk just briefly about sort of what the series is. It's five books. The first book is the book of three. um The protagonist is named Taran. SethH I had the hardest time. I think the the version that I read when i was in you know when I was a kid did not have a pronunciation guide. Jared Crossley Oh, sure. Sure. SethH So I always thought it was Taran. But Taran is the way the pronunciation guide says it. Jared Crossley Yeah. Yeah. SethH so Jared Crossley Yeah. And I've heard, um, a lot of different pronunciations, the names, because a lot of the names are Welsh names, they can be hard to pronounce. Um, and so they, as you mentioned, there is a pronunciation guide. Jared Crossley Um, one time Lloyd Alexander also was asked about the pronunciation of some names and he said, you know, there's a way that I had it in my mind when I wrote it. But it maybe isn't true to the the Welsh pronunciation as well. Jared Crossley um And so for you as a reader, you find the way that works best for you. And you know some people say tarran some people say Taran, say Taran, Taran. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley But yeah, so. SethH Yeah, and and and they' there's a delightful sort of cast of characters to around him where you have you have called the like the grizzled, you know, ah warrior who's retired and just is working on a farm now. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um And Dolbin, who's kind of the Gandalf character, right? He's the old old wizard. It was very wise. Um, the Henwin, the oracular pig is, is great. SethH Um, I Lonwy of the golden hair, you know, my, my first literary crush. Jared Crossley Right. Right. SethH Um, and, uh, and fluter flam, right? That's, that's one where it's probably fluter, um, or something like that for, for Welsh cause the double D, um, who he's so funny. Jared Crossley Yeah. Jared Crossley Right. SethH I just, I love that character so much. Jared Crossley Yeah. And, you know, ah mentioning um you know, the similarities to Tolkien. One other thing I want to point out, and this kind of helps tell readers about what this book is like. Jared Crossley um The Book of Three really is a ah great textbook example of the hero's journey, right? We have Joseph Campbell, the hero with a thousand faces. SethH Yes. Jared Crossley um This hero's journey that Taran goes on um all of the parts that you want in The Hero's Journey are are in this book. He leaves his home, there's this call to adventure um and it's so much so that when i I used to also teach elementary school and I would use this book with my fifth grade students and we'd talk about The Hero's Journey and a lot of people, a lot of my students were like wow that this copied Star Wars SethH Mm Jared Crossley And it's the same story as Luke Skywalker. SethH -hmm Jared Crossley And I'm like, actually, Star Wars was made after this book, but they both are using this the same arc of the hero's journey. um You have Taran. There's this ah pig that he's in charge of taking care of that runs off. Jared Crossley And so he has to go after it. um He leaves. He makes these these friends and that help him on his journey. um There's this mentor figure. Jared Crossley There was the Dalban that you mentioned, but also there's Gwyddian, who's the prince of Pridane, that is this mentor figure for Tarin, kind of the Obi-Wan SethH Right. SethH Gergi, the comic relief. Jared Crossley Right, right. um and And then there's this this evil lurking right there's the Horned King, um who's this giant of a man who hides his face behind a mask that is a human skull with the the horns of a stag, um these antlers. Jared Crossley and ah rides around with this crimson cape. um His arms are stained in crimson and he's gathering this army to try and destroy the Sons of Dawn. So you you have these two groups really in Pradain. There's the Sons of Dawn who are there the protectors. The High King of p Pradain is the High King Maath and then you have the evil, right the good versus evil trope. Jared Crossley um that You have Iran, who is this death lord, and then his war leader is the horned king. SethH Right. Jared Crossley um And then you have this small little farm boy, this this pig boy that is working his way through this whole conflict between good versus evil and and finding his journey to manhood SethH Right. Hmm. Jared Crossley um in this bigger scope of this this battle that is going to be taking place. SethH Yeah, yeah. And i I believe in this first book, you do encounter the cauldron born, right? Because they they get captured by the cauldron born and taken to Akrim, I think. Jared Crossley Right. SethH And the cauldron born are so creepy, um just like the way it describes them as being completely silent, or because they've they've basically stolen the the voice and personality of these warriors who have died and then been resurrected in this form. Jared Crossley Right. Jared Crossley Yeah. Jared Crossley Right. Right, they are silent as the grave, right, because they literally are dead bodies that have been brought back to serve just the purpose of of evil. SethH um Yeah. SethH yeah Yeah, and that kind of leads into the Black Cauldron and where we talked about ah you know that that that book is much more, I think is probably the most famous of them just because of the the film adaptation um where essentially they set out to to take away the cauldron in order to prevent more cauldron born from being created. Jared Crossley Right. Jared Crossley Right. Yeah. SethH And in all of these, you know it kind of does have that hero's journey, right where in that one, Taran has the um conflict with the other princeling. I can't remember his name. SethH He's he's very proud. Jared Crossley ah Ella deer. SethH Eladir, that's right. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um But that story wraps up so nicely. I really, really… love it. And one thing about these books is, yeah, they are, you know, middle grade kind of stuff, but they don't pull a lot of punches, you know, they're there, they get pretty violent at times, um you know, more or less the way like the chronics of Narnia do, right, where there's, there's swords and battles and healing of Orknecks and things, you know, Jared Crossley Right. Jared Crossley Right. Right. Yeah, and that's one thing. you know um They are fairly violent. They are heavy. There is death, um even you know some characters that that you care about that that get killed in the series. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um But I feel like it's not overly graphic right because it's intended for that that young reader. SethH Yes. Jared Crossley um And so, as you said, it doesn't hold any punches, but it's done in ins still a sensitive in a sensitive way, I think. SethH And then it's interesting in the in the development of the the series, and I think I was familiar with this prior to watching the the documentary, but he had originally pitched it as a trilogy and then ended up, no it's okay, it's going to need to be four books because we need we need to get Ilanmi to this place. Jared Crossley Right. SethH And so the Castle of Lear is kind of the development of that character. um And then he also needed to do the same thing with Taran, and so you have Taran Wanderer where he kind of travels throughout the lands and you know studies a lot of different trades to try and figure out who he is. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um And I really love that book just because reading it as a as a young 11 or 12-year-old, you know ah those feelings really connect right of, well, what am I going to be? Jared Crossley Right? Right. Well, that's ah and interestingly enough, as you alluded to, it originally started as a trilogy. But then when he was writing the third book, he realized that this isn't going to be enough. Like, there's, I have to build it to this climax, and I can't do that in this book. And so he wrote a fourth book, um which at that time was titled The High King of Predane. Jared Crossley and sent that to his editor and she said, ah you're missing a book here because you allude to Taron's growth but we as the reader didn't go through that with him and so that fourth book, Taron Wanderer, he went back and rewrote that and that's where we go through that growth. SethH Hmm hmm. Jared Crossley That's that moment that he really um becomes a man right he He goes out on his own in search of of his lineage. SethH Yes. Jared Crossley He's searching for his his parents. um He was a foundling um and so trying to figure out who he is um and um you know trying to do that by finding who he came from, right what his lineage is. SethH Right. Jared Crossley But he ends up going through this journey of self-discovery and just finding kind of growing into his own as as the man that he becomes. SethH Yeah, yeah. So then the actual fifth book is called The High King, and that's that's where you kind of have the final confrontation between the the forces of the sons of Don and Good and Arran and his forces. Jared Crossley and Jared Crossley Right? and And out of the five books, The High King is my favorite, my own personal favorite. And a big reason for that is because of all of the four books preceding, right? it It really builds upon everything that happens. SethH Yes. Jared Crossley Every character, um with the exception of those who have have died, um but every character that is in the first four books plays a part in this final battle that's in this fifth book. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley um And I feel like Alexander doesn't masterfully. He weaves all of these storylines together. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um the The threat is real. It's it's heavy. um and yeah it's just it's beautiful story of this final battle for the land of perdain this final challenge between good versus evil and everybody even the animals in in the land of perdain cannot remain idle and everyone has to choose a side whether they are on the side of good versus evil um and and so the stakes are very very high SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. Yeah. I, I, usually my favorite book is the one I'm currently reading and in that series, but I, yeah, I always, well, of course I always, you know, maybe it's the sign of a good series, right? Jared Crossley Right. right SethH Where, where I feel a great sense of loss every time I finish the high King. Jared Crossley right yeah it's ah i I don't know how many times I've read the series but the majority of the times I've read it I've shed tears in that last book because of how SethH Mm-hmm. Jared Crossley like you said, a a great sense of loss when you finish the book and you just have to say goodbye to these characters um that you've grown to love and care for and and and um you' you've almost become as a reader part of their ah fellowship um on their journeys and and you have to say goodbye to them, which is always a hard thing to do. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. So is there anything else in kind of Alexander 101 that you would recommend other than predain? Jared Crossley Yeah, so um I mean each each of his books I think are um great examples of who he was as an author. Jared Crossley He he was someone that thought at a very deep level. um There's a lot of ah philosophical um exploration in his books. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley i I feel like he more than a lot of other authors um really are are trying to explore the human condition in his writings. Like, why are we the way that we are? And and why do we do what we do as humans? um And so one example of this is the book, The Iron Ring, ah where he's it's based in in ancient India. Jared Crossley It's each of each of his books, I think, ah well, most of his books are a fantasy land. um So it's not actual ancient India, but it's a land that is based very heavily on ancient India. SethH Yeah, analogous to it at least. Jared Crossley Right. SethH yeah Jared Crossley And so it really explores the caste system and um this idea of You know, who is above who? And because we are born into a certain caste, does that make us better than others who are born into a caste that is perceived as lesser? um And you have this king who goes on this journey, um and he meets the lowest of low. He he spends time with a grave digger, um someone that that works at the cemetery who is the the lowest of castes in this society. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um and has this whole conflict about, you know, if this person touches me, do I lose my value? SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley um and And just this whole exploration of what, where do we get our value from? Is it because of the rank that we were born into or who we are as people? SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um and And I feel like that book, he explores that in a really beautiful way. um And then another ah book, and this actually a series of trilogy um is the Westmark trilogy. SethH Let's save that one for advanced. Jared Crossley Oh, sure, sure. SethH Yeah, yeah so um ah you also mentioned um Timecat, which which is a fun one. you know it like If you want a ah fun read aloud you know for for grade school kids, it's a really nice one, just because that that silly concept of, wait, what if they have nine lives and they're not necessarily you know continuous, right? Jared Crossley yeah SethH where they they they They have nine lives, but it doesn't mean they die and they have another one. It means they just kind of live in nine different places. Jared Crossley Right, Frank. Jared Crossley And one thing about TimeCat is, and it works really well with like a sixth grade ah read ala read aloud. Sorry. SethH Yeah, just take that again. Jared Crossley um You know, one really great thing about TimeCat And it works really well in a sixth grade classroom because um the curriculum in sixth grade is looking at world history. Jared Crossley And um in this book, because ah the aspect of this cat traveling through different ah historical time periods and different parts of the world, it's like one of the lives is set in ancient Egypt. SethH Right. Jared Crossley And as Alexander was studying ancient Egypt, he found that cats were almost worshipped in in that time period. SethH right Jared Crossley And so ah we get to see that. um And then another time period is the cat takes him to um Leonardo da Vinci. Jared Crossley And the cat is Leonardo da Vinci's pet in that time period. And so you get to learn it a little bit about what was going on in the Renaissance. um SethH yeah Jared Crossley And so that that's a ah great way of exploring world history in a classroom or or in your home with with your children um and just getting a brief overview of different time periods um through a fictional lens, but that is based in actual history. SethH Yeah. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the, ah what was that series with the Jack Russell Terrier at Wishbone? Jared Crossley Oh yeah, yeah, wishbone. SethH Um, yeah, some similar kind of concept to it, but yeah, it's, it's a good one for, for kind of starting somebody out with Alexander. Jared Crossley All right. SethH The Iron Ring is one that I think I got, um, my son got to pick a book for like the summer reading program at the, at the library. And, um, and I said, Oh, there's a Lord Alexander title. SethH I haven't, haven't read. And, uh, you know, he knew about perdain. Jared Crossley yeah SethH So, so we got that one and I read it to him. Jared Crossley Yeah Yeah Yeah, so um one one trilogy that uh that really SethH Um, and that was, that was good. Okay, let's go ahead and let's assume some people have read pertain, right? They maybe they've read the Iron Ring Maybe they've read time cat or some of his other fiction and they want to move on to something lesser known Jared Crossley um is is one of his heavier books um or one of his heavier series is the westmark trilogy um there are three books in the series the first one is titled westmark the second book is the kestrel and then the third book is the beggar queen and this book series is based um on the french revolution uh once again in a uh fictional land and so it's not It's not real heavy on the French Revolution, but that's where it it comes from. And I think also this series is one where Lloyd Alexander Jared Crossley um As I mentioned earlier, he fought in World War II for the United States. um And I think after that experience, he spent a lot of time thinking about war and about um just the humanity that's in war. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley And I think this trilogy is one way that he was trying to process that aspect of of war. um and And really looking at ah morals and and how your moral compass um can shape who you are, um but then how this this big conflict of war can also cause you to question your your moral compass. SethH Right, yeah. Jared Crossley and SethH And it's interesting, i hadn't it hadn't occurred to me that that it was ah about the sort of inspired by the French Revolution. But now now that I think of it, there there are some scenes in it that reminded me of A Tale of Two Cities. SethH um And um yeah, it starts out, you know Theo is the main character in these books. And this is this is one that I remember reading in seventh or eighth grade, um definitely in middle school. SethH And it it is a little heavier than the chronics chronicles would perdain. And you know there's quite a bit of death and other such things. SethH And and you know Theo, I remember, at some point struggles with, I think it's in the kestrel, where there was some enemy captured, and then they were executed. And and he thought, that was that the right thing to do? Jared Crossley Right. SethH um you know These weren't soldiers. These were you know cooks. Jared Crossley Right. SethH um But early in Westmark, right, he's a printer's devil, right? Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH he he He's an apprentice to ah a printer. And the cabarrus, or cabarrus, how do you pronounce his name? Jared Crossley I usually say caberus, but. SethH Cabarrus, yeah. um he's He's kind of SethH you'd like worm tongue from the Lord of the Rings where he's kind of proxy leading, you know, ru ruling the kingdom because the the the king has kind of gone mad with grief because of his lost daughter. Jared Crossley Right. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um And they're shutting down printers because, of course, they they want to control the media. Jared Crossley Right. SethH And, you know, attacking the media is a thing I guess politicians do. um It's still relevant today. And when the soldiers break in, Theo defends them, and he believes that he has killed one of them um by by breaking a ah printing frame over him. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH And this causes him a lot of consternation about, right is that who I am as a person, the kind of person who will do violence? Jared Crossley Right. yeah And that's, and and so that's one thing I really like about Westmark, you know, it follows Theo after he, he feels that he killed this soldier he, ah he runs away right he spends his life on the run running from the law. Jared Crossley But he's carrying this baggage of like, wow, what did I do? SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um And I hit this guy over the head. He finds out fairly so early on that he didn't kill him, that he is alive. SethH Right. Jared Crossley But he I don't think it made it any easier for him because he he keeps going back to it and like, I wanted to kill him. SethH No. Jared Crossley I wanted to hurt him. SethH Right. at At first, he is telling himself, well, it was an accident. I didn't want to kill him. Jared Crossley Right. SethH But then he realizes later on, no, I i did want to. Jared Crossley Yeah, and and so he's just struggling the whole book with this moral compass and it carries on, as you mentioned, throughout into the later books as well. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley But this this idea of when is it okay to hurt somebody? SethH yeah Jared Crossley um And there's a situation late in the book of Westmark that one of his comrades is being attacked by a soldier and is maybe going to be killed and Theo has a gun SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley He's pointing it at the soldier and his friend is shouting like, kill him, like kill him. And Theo just can't do it. SethH And you can't do it, yeah. Jared Crossley So someone else comes in and and does that, but he just can't bring himself to do it um because he has this struggle of of what is right, what is wrong. Jared Crossley And it's really fascinating throughout the series to see how War plays on on Theo and and his moral compass. SethH Yeah. Yeah, when he starts to see ah atrocities, right, to see that the the enemy is burning villages and hanging civilians, um then he he kind of – I like the way – I think it's in the Kestrel, right, where there was a ah phrase that he had gone mad but not so – but had gone mad enough to not know that he was mad, right to believe he was still still sane. Jared Crossley All right. Jared Crossley Great. Yeah. SethH Yeah. and And the other interesting thing in this series is it really talks about systems of government as well, because you have this character Florian, who's much more of a, you know, I guess, small R Republican, right? Jared Crossley Right. SethH Where where he he doesn't believe in monarchy. Jared Crossley great Right. SethH ah He's at least anti-monarchist. Maybe he's an anarchist. I don't know. Jared Crossley Right. SethH um Jared Crossley But he he wants the power in the hands of the people, right? SethH Yes. Jared Crossley um And so the the current government is a monarchy. um As you mentioned earlier, it's being led by Cabris, who is the the chief advisor to this mentally ill king. Jared Crossley um And so there's ah there are a couple of groups that see the evil in this and and want to stop it. But there's one group that still feels like a monarchy is the way to go. We just have to remove the the evil pieces of it, where there's this other group that is like, no, we've got to get rid of a monarchy. um We need to put the power in the hands of the people. SethH Right. And then there's of course, you know, the aristocracy and the rich people and some of the generals who think, nope, everything's good the way it is. Jared Crossley Right, right. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley Yeah, so so really that political tension as well as the the personal moral struggle, but then also the whole society, like how how is it best to have a society and a government? SethH um SethH Yeah, yeah. I'll be interested to see how it comes out just because, like I said, I read Westmark and in Junior High and I never continued the series. And so I'm i'm halfway through the test roll now um and really enjoying it. um It's a very good book, a very good series. SethH um There's, we didn't mention Mickle as well. Jared Crossley Right, right. SethH um And I don't want to, I don't want to spoil too much, but she's a terrific character as well. Jared Crossley and One thing I really want to spend a minute and and just give a shout out to Lloyd Alexander for this. ah His female characters that he writes, um he started writing in the 1950s, 1960s, and at that time having a strong female character was Um, was not the norm. Jared Crossley Um, there certainly are other great examples as well. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley Um, but in the predain books, he has like, Lon, we who she, she is. her own character, she will not take guff from anybody. SethH Well, she takes no crap. Yeah. Jared Crossley like and She's a very strong character. And you see the same thing with Mikkel in the Westmark trilogy. you know she When we first meet her, she is you know the low of the low. Jared Crossley She's been living on the street. and but yet she is so strong. um And then another series that we haven't mentioned that Lloyd Alexander wrote is the Vesper Holly series. SethH Right. Jared Crossley um I think there's six books in this series, um but it's ah also the protagonist is this young girl named Vesper Holly. um And it's this almost Indiana Jones type ah books, but with a teenage girl as as your protagonist. SethH and Okay. Jared Crossley um And so going on these archaeological explorations and adventures and um she's she's also oh trying to remember it's been a while I think she's from Philadelphia. Jared Crossley um So this is one example of some books that are not SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um based in a fantasy world, but they are based in in our world. um But that's another you know great example of a a strong female character that Lloyd Alexander wrote. um and And those people that knew him best say that He thinks a lot of these characters really are based on his wife, Jeanine, who was a very strong personality and um and so credit to her. SethH yeah Jared Crossley but But I think that's one thing I really love about Lloyd Alexander's books is those young female characters and You know, the inner strength that they have. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley that They don't need any young prints to come and save them. SethH Mm hmm. Jared Crossley they They can take care of, in many cases, they save the prints themselves. SethH Yeah, that's the interesting thing. Yeah, with Michael, it very often is her actions that that are what saves the day. um And the the the last act of Westmark is absolutely terrific. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um And there's there's also, um, ah what is it Los Campos? Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH um Las Campos, Las Bombas, the con man. Jared Crossley Oh, yeah, yeah. SethH right he's He reminds me of Fluter Flamm just because he's – in this he's definitely a confidence man um and going around you know peddling elixirs and that kind of stuff that's just you know ditch water. Jared Crossley Right. Jared Crossley Right, right. SethH um and but he He has a good heart as well um But he's he's completely foolhardy when it comes to money and that kind of stuff I love that at the end of Westmark he got he basically got the Nigerian print scam done on him um ah Before email was a thing um So there's kind of categorizing the the fantasy that's at play here, you know, with something like predain, right, you have magic of of some kind, right? Jared Crossley Right. Jared Crossley All right. SethH Where in Westmark, it's much more just, I don't know, and I'm not intelligent enough about fantasy genres to know where Westmark falls, because it's sort of just a secondary world, although I think Brazil is mentioned. Jared Crossley Right? Jared Crossley yeah Yeah, so it is it is a ah low fra low fantasy, right? So we have high fantasy, which interesting side note, Lloyd Alexander is the person that first came up with that term of high fantasy. SethH um Okay. Jared Crossley um so um But high fantasy, which is where Pradain would fit, you have different types of creatures, um different magic. um which we don't have in our world. Jared Crossley And then there's low fantasy, which Westmark would be a great example of that, where it's a world that does not exist, um or at least a country that does not exist. It might take place in our world, um but it is a fantastical country. SethH Okay. Jared Crossley But it still follows the rules of our country, um or of our world. And so it would be a very low fantasy. SethH Right. Jared Crossley It almost reads like a historical fiction. SethH Yeah, yeah, that's that's what I was gonna say. It does read a little bit more like historical fiction. But yeah, I really enjoyed that, that series. I'll have to check out the Vesper Holly series just because I always enjoy Lloyd Alexander whenever I encounter him. SethH And I just haven't done a deep dive on his ah catalog. Jared Crossley Yeah. Jared Crossley Yeah, those those are great ones. one One sad thing about Lloyd Alexander, because he um is is as not as well known as a lot of other authors, a lot of these books are going out of print. Jared Crossley um And so they are harder to find. A lot of times, you might still be able to find some at public libraries or things. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley But ah eBay, eBay is one place where i I find a lot of Alexander books and you can usually, if you don't mind getting ah a secondhand copy, you can usually get them for fairly inexpensive there. Jared Crossley But yeah, SethH yeah yeah i Yeah, I have not been able to find an inexpensive copy of that 50th anniversary version of The High King. That's hundreds of dollars if you want to get that one. Jared Crossley right. Yeah, those 50th anniversary ones are the exception for sure. SethH Yeah, and I just, I want all my books to be the same size. And so, you know, I could get another ah copy of The Hiking. I do have the the bound set that has all of the ah the Chronicles of Pernain and the Foundling and other stories of Pernain in it. Jared Crossley and Sure. Yeah. SethH um But that's not the way I like to read it. I like to read it in these small little books that you feel like, oh, I could finish this today. Jared Crossley Right. and And that's one thing with with the Chronicles of Predane, you know, that 50th anniversary was a very limited release and so ah they've become quite high demand. Jared Crossley But because two of the books got the Newbery Medal or Newbery recognition, that series will never go out of print. SethH Yeah. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley And so you will always us be able to find a copy of the Chronicles of Perdain, whether it's a paperback or or whether it's a hardback copy. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um they've They've been in print for over 60 years now and and will continue to to be published as long as America keeps honoring the Newbery Medal and and former winners. SethH Yeah, I always keep hoping that we'll get a good television series adaptation of Predain. Jared Crossley Yeah. SethH I don't necessarily think that the Castle of Lear and Taran Wanderer need to be adapted into a whole season. I feel like you could stitch those in there to show the development of the characters. but um But yeah, it would definitely benefit from that treatment and I don't know what what's going on with that because because the movie – that was one of my first really – oh, the book was way better ah kind of kind of experiences. Jared Crossley yeah Jared Crossley yeah yeah that's Yeah, the Disney animated movie certainly um ah ah disappointed a lot of fans of the book. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um I will say that publicly Lloyd Alexander never said anything negative about the movie. um When he was asked about it, people were trying to get him to to talk bad about it. Jared Crossley He said, hey, listen, a book is a book. And a movie is a movie. um you know trying to It can be its own thing and it's still we still have the book. SethH yeah agreed Yeah. Jared Crossley but But I agree. I think a lot of people, ah especially fans of the book, would love to see some live action adaptations, whether it's a ah series like a television series or a series of films or something. SethH Yeah, it's funny because i I feel like maybe I said this on the comfort reads episode. Jared Crossley um SethH I don't know that the success of the Lord of the Rings franchise has made it less likely to get another, you know, similar kind of fantasy thing off the ground just because it's going to be compared to the Lord of the Rings. Jared Crossley Right. Yeah. But I mean, you never know. And especially today with with how how many series there are that are being adapted into streaming for um different platforms. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley I know Disney currently has has the rights um to the predain books. Whether or not they will do anything with them, who knows. SethH Yeah. Yeah. Jared Crossley But SethH and And it'd be one of those things like i I worry about the, um, the Percy Jackson series that they're not, they're not doing it on a schedule. That's going to keep up with the kids aging. Jared Crossley Great. SethH Um, and that makes it pretty tough and, and with, with pretty, and you would want to, to make sure to, to get that right as well. Jared Crossley Great. SethH And that, that probably means that they just start with him slightly older. Jared Crossley Well, that's yeah because because these characters in the book, over the five books, there is a lot of growth, right? You start with Taran and Ilanwi. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley It never mentions their exact ages, but they are kind of like that early teen, 13, 14, at the beginning of the book. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley But then by the end of the series, they have grown into adulthood. They are you know right around 20 years old or so. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley um And so it's kind of each each book is kind of a year, not quite as formulaic as the Harry Potter series, but they go throughout that growth over the five books. SethH Yeah. SethH Well, any other advanced Alexander titles. Jared Crossley um me Let me look at my shelf here real quick. you know there There are a couple of of books that I think really give a ah good glimpse into who he was as a person. um So the one that came the closest to being autobiographical is the Goggin and the Boy. um And it is about a young boy who is ill and so he's stuck in bed and his aunt, I think it's his aunt, comes and Jared Crossley brings him these stories and things. And that is about his childhood. He spent about a year, I think it was maybe six months, in bed ah sick with pneumonia and and other illnesses during his childhood. SethH Hmm. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley and And so he wrote a book about those experiences. SethH Okay. Jared Crossley um And then two other books, The Wizard and the Tree, um that was written in the 1970s. And he was going through a really heavy bout of depression at the time that he wrote that book. um And I feel like the I've heard that the wizard in those books is very autobiographical. And so a lot of the um feelings in that book are are straight from that place where he was at that time. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley And so I feel like that book really gives a good glimpse into who he was as a writer. um And then the rope trick is, is the other one that So that book, um he was, I think, nearing the end of his life. it was It was one of his later books. It's not his last book, interestingly, but I think when he wrote it, he felt like it might be his last book. um And so some of the things in that book ah You kind of get a sense of a finality. of um he He maybe thought that that this was the end. um His last book though was the golden dream of Carlo Chuchio, which he wrote and then within like two weeks after finishing the final revisions he passed away. And so it was published, I can never say that word right, but posthumously. SethH Nailed it. Jared Crossley Yeah, so he it was published after he died, um but that that was his his final book. so um I think those those are like the the main ones that I can think of. Jared Crossley one One other one I'll just throw a plug in for. It is one of my own personal favorite books, and it's one of his first books. It was one of the books he wrote for adults. And so it is a harder harder one to find. Jared Crossley um But if you can get your hands on a copy of it, it is well worth the read. SethH okay Jared Crossley is My wife, Jeanine, is French. And it's it's about his wife um and her ah adapting to American culture after coming from Paris to the United States post-World War II. SethH Right. Jared Crossley And it is a delightful book. It's full of humor. um It really helps you get to know who his wife was. Jared Crossley um SethH Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that would shed some light on, on the female characters that he has, because you you you think about, you know, the life that she led, right? Jared Crossley so Jared Crossley Right. SethH Being in France during World War II and then coming to the US. And I don't think she spoke English when they first came. Jared Crossley Right, and she, a funny story, and this is mentioned in the documentary, so anyone that has seen that would would hear this, but she came before he did, um because they got free passage for war brides on a ship before he was actually released to go home. SethH Right. Jared Crossley And so she came and was living with his parents and they knew someone else that had come across I think from World War I, a war bride from France, um but they invited her over and she had like got, yeah she had gotten rid of her French accent and Janine was just heartbroken and she thought I do not want to become SethH Mm hmm. Assimilated, yeah. Jared Crossley like this, like who I am as a French lady is a part I never want to lose. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley And so till the day she died, she kept her her French accent. SethH Yeah. Yeah. and And then, you know, um he was an author and I think he had some, you know, I don't know if he had pension or or some, he had some sort of income, right? SethH But, ah but it can't have necessarily been easy running that house while he was trying to make it as an author. Jared Crossley Yeah. Jared Crossley Right. Yeah, it was, as I mentioned, I think seven years that he was trying to publish. um But for part of that time, I think it was just one or two years that they were still getting those checks from the government. Jared Crossley um And so after that he was he had to go to work and he would work his day job and then SethH Mm hmm. Jared Crossley ah he would try and write at different hours. um Even later in life, once he could work solely as an author, he would get up at early, early hours of the morning. and What comes to mind is like four o'clock, but it i might have even been earlier than that. And that's when he would do his writing. It was early in the morning, the house was quiet, everyone else was asleep. He said, that's when the voices really came to him the most. Jared Crossley um And so I don't know if that is a carry over from when he was working multiple jobs or, or what, but, uh, he would always get up really early, write for a few hours, then get up and make breakfast for his wife and, and then carry on with the day. But, uh, I was get up early and and do his writing first thing. SethH Nice, nice. Well, kind of as we wrap up here, you know, why should people read Lloyd Alexander? Jared Crossley um I feel like Lloyd Alexander, and I mentioned this earlier, but he really does a phenomenal job job of exploring the human condition and and and morals and um just this this, all these questions that we all the time are are wondering like, Jared Crossley You know what is the right thing to do in this situation and you won't necessarily find the answers to those types of questions but it it allows you to explore those things at a deep level. um He was an incredibly intelligent man um and he always did so much research. He would spend about a year researching everything about the topic that he was going to write, whether it was a ah time period, a part of the world, a culture, um he would spend about a year doing lots and lots of research before doing that writing. SethH Thank you. Jared Crossley And I've never found one of his books that that doesn't hold up, that that just does does a poor job. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley i I feel like each of his books is is worth the time to sit down and read. um Obviously some of them I i enjoy better and and are probably better books than others, but I i don't and don't think anyone would would really regret taking time to to read a Lloyd Alexander book. SethH Yeah, yeah. And like you said, some of his books are hard to find, right, because because he's not as well known an author anymore. Jared Crossley Right? SethH I was in Barnes and Noble the other day, and there was a big display of all the young adult fiction and had Percy Jackson and um what are the other ones, you know, the Hunger Games and and some of those other ones. SethH And I thought this is this is a mistake here. We should have predain in this mix. Jared Crossley Right, right. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley Well, yeah, that's, ah i I love talking about Lloyd Alexander. um If you want to learn more, and yeah my my documentary is on YouTube. SethH Yeah. Jared Crossley You can just search Lloyd Alexander documentary. And it's an hour long. um But if you don't want to commit a whole hour on that channel, I have little segments from the film as well. Jared Crossley So um yeah. SethH Yeah. Yeah, i thought I thought the documentary was excellent. And so I'll make sure to put a ah link in the show notes if folks want to know more about this author. That is, you know, he's a classic American author. If you're if you're an American fan of fantasy, especially, you know, middle grade kind of fantasy, you should definitely check him out. Jared Crossley Awesome. SethH All right. So before we actually sign off here, Jared, is there any place people can find you other than the the documentary? Jared Crossley um Yeah, so I am on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I'm i'm not super active. um I do have a Lloyd Alexander ah documentary page on Facebook as well, but it's probably been years since I've posted on that. SethH Hmm. Jared Crossley So I'm not real active, but you can still reach out to me there. um SethH And there's the blog as well, right? the It's on Blogspot, I think. Jared Crossley Yeah, yeah, there's a Lloyd Alexander, I think it's loydalexanderfilm.blogspot.com. um Once again, I haven't posted for a number of years on there, but there's a lot of information about ah my journey making the film um and just Lloyd Alexander in general that you can learn more on there. SethH Well, I was glad it was there because that's how I found you. So yeah. Jared Crossley Awesome. SethH All right. um I'm going to go ahead and sign off, but don't shut down your browser. Don't don't touch anything. um i I'll let you know when we can actually hang up. judge So don't when I say goodbye, don't believe me. Jared Crossley Sounds good. SethH All right, Jared, well, this was a ton of fun. it It's it was great to revisit some of Lord Alexander's work. I need to read the Chronicles of Redane again because I haven't read them in a couple of years. um And then, you know, I'm I'm looking forward to finishing the Westmark trilogy as well. SethH And then You've given me some other titles to check out. So thank you so much for doing that. Jared Crossley Yeah, thank you, Seth. i I've loved being on here, loved talking about Lloyd Alexander and yeah, I appreciate you having me on. SethH All right. And so for listeners out there, if you are a fan of Lord Alexander, any of his works, you know, let us know if there's favorites that that we missed or, um you know, what you think about the ah suggestions here. All right. Thanks again, Jared. Bye now. Jared Crossley Bye.