SethH Hi there, and welcome back to the Hugos There podcast. ah This time it's just a regular episode. This one is about a Hugo nominee. That Hugo nominee is Old Man's War by John Scalzi. And my guest's name is Tony, last name redacted. And um we are going to be talking about this this book. I can't remember what, I think 2005 is the book, Tony? Tony That sounds right in front of me, but yeah, this sounds right. SethH Yeah, let me let me check that. I like to get that kind of thing right. Tony ah copy but nice SethH come on Tony I should have had that on hand. SethH Yeah, i usually I usually write out the intro just so so that I have it and I didn't this time. Tony Yeah, 2005. SethH Yeah. 2006 nominee. Yeah. Okay. I'll take that again. SethH So we're going to be talking about this 2006 Hugo nominee novel from 2005. So hi, Tony. Thanks for joining me. Tony Hi, Seth, thanks for having me on the podcast. I'm a big fan of it. SethH Yeah. Yeah. And you had reached out at some point on Facebook, I think, and we talked about doing this one. I think once you realized I was doing nominees, you're like, Ooh, old man. for Tony Yes, Old Man's War is a personal favorite of mine, so any chance to geek out and talk about the book, I'll take. SethH Perfect. Nice. Well, tell me a little bit about yourself. Tony Uh, I am active duty army. I've been serving for about 18 years now. I have a background in a special, a special area of the military and, uh, really enjoy sci-fi. Um, I like where old man's war and and my my background in military and training work. I currently work at a training center, so that makes this one a little more fun for me. SethH Nice, nice. And we were talking beforehand. i like i I felt like we should have done video with this where you're like in the shadow with the voice modulator, ah spilling secrets on on US military operations, which we're not going to do. Tony and so Tony yeah SethH We're going to be talking about military science fiction. Tony No no no no. Yes. SethH So is military science fiction a particular favorite of yours? Tony It is. ah it's it I didn't expect it to become that way, but it is. I got and i guess I'd been a fan of sci-fi for a long time and didn't really realize it. And then I watched the movie Interstellar and read the book The Martian and reached out to a friend like, hey, what other books are there like this? And he recommended Ender's Game to me, and which is kind of military sci-fi. And then i was like a month later I was deploying and I brought two books with me, which was Tony Highline's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and John Scalzi's Old Man's Board. I read the two books on the way overseas and after that it was hooked and I i really got hooked to military sci-fi too. SethH Yeah, I'd be curious to know like from from somebody who's who's active duty military, like are there things in military science fiction where you're like, I don't think this person served. or or you know are there Are there obvious tells where where you're like, that doesn't seem about seem seem right to me. Tony There's very obvious tells where if the person served or not. If you read like John Ringo's books, his ah legacy, the Aldonada series, you he uses an immense amount of military jargon down to calling staff shops by their name, the S3 and the S2. SethH Hmm. Tony And you can tell like he served immensely on the frontline series. by Marco Close, you can tell he served, which is fun. SethH Okay. Tony but one One part of Old Man's War that I really enjoy is that it's fun and it doesn't like poke at the military, but he didn't serve. You can kind of tell, but not really. From ones that don't serve, you usually get a little bit different view of the military, but he doesn't poke it at it the way you get from people that don't serve. SethH yeah SethH Well, this book is interesting too, just because and what we can talk about kind of what it's about before we get into like this, all the spoilers and that kind of stuff. But um there's two sides to it. There's like the the old man side and the war side. Tony Yes. SethH um And and as a ah man in his 50s, I understand I identify with the old man side. Tony Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, the the older body that's starting to break down and the knees that don't quite work right. I feel that part more than i read it than when I first read it 10 years ago. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah, yeah, just this like in the last week or so, I've been rehabbing a shoulder from from a surgery, but all of a sudden my knee hurts and I'm like, I don't remember injuring myself. And I'm like, oh, right, I'm 52. Tony sometimes it Sometimes it just hurts now for fun. SethH let SethH Yep, yep. um So, so yeah, let's go ahead and talk a little bit about this kind of the, what this novel is. Like, if you are going to present an elevator pitch to somebody, why would they want to read this one? Tony ah SethH And what is it? Tony So the the fun thing with the book is you have a main character, John Perry, decides at the age of 75, he's going to join the military. SethH Yeah. Tony He's going to join the colonial offense force, which is not the typical time you join the military, but ah he's towards the end of his time on his life and joining the colonial offense force means you leave earth. Tony You have to say goodbye to it. You can't go back to it. You get to join the military. You don't know how it works that you're going to be able to SethH Right. Tony To fight you like you assume that they're not gonna use just old people so you you're willing to take the chance and you join you save say goodbye to earth and at the Right young age of 75 you start off for a career in the military Yeah SethH Yeah, yeah. It's interesting the way this one opens where it says something like, you know, I did two things on my son for the birthday, I visited my wife's grave and I joined the military. And um and yeah, that's, it's it's kind of the background sort of sadness of this is that he and his wife had both tried, both decided to enlist, and she had died before she was able to. Tony Yeah, you have that like that's one part I really like in the beginning, that thick, loving bond with his wife and how, like you said, leaving that like he's only really able to do this at this point. It's easier for him because he doesn't have that to leave behind. SethH yeah Yeah, I love the line too um that that he puts in here that's just one of these, it's just kind of a sweet line. it's It's easier to miss her at a cemetery where she's never been anything but dead than to miss her all the places where she was alive. Tony Yes, yeah, he's he's no longer in the house. It's haunted by her presence and everything like that. SethH Yeah, yeah. It this in a lot of ways is kind of the the yin to enders games, yang, right? Because it's ah in in that book, it's young man's war, right? SethH Where it's like, kids have the flexibility in their minds to be able to to handle these concepts, where adults, you know, are too high bound and set in their ways and that kind of stuff where in this one, it's, hey, how about what if we took a lifetime experiences and made a fighting man out of that and fighting woman? Tony Yes, I hadn't thought about that. It's a good comparison because Ender's what, six when he's taken? SethH Yeah. Tony and like So he's just, his childhood is nothing but indoctrination. SethH Yeah, yeah. um And I didn't remember, so this was a reread for me. I had read it a number of years ago, I think after I read Starship Troopers and the Forever War, or so somewhere in there, to the point that there's scenes in this one where I was like, oh, right, it's in this one, not in the Forever War or not in Starship Troopers. Tony Yeah. SethH um and And so yeah, it's it's a reread for me. I was gonna do it on audio, but my library didn't have it ready for me. So I picked it up ah in, I picked up the ebook. i Actually, I think I already had the ebook and just tore through it. SethH It's it's a really quick read. Tony It is. It's fun. As some sci-fi, you kind of have to punch your way through, especially if you're getting to the Hugo nominees. But this one, I think, similar. I've just finished. ah The movie's a harsh mystery. So I'm like, ah, I'll give it a shot. And I think by the next night, it was gone. SethH Oh, really? Okay. So that that that's one that can do some of the language in it, right? Because the way ah the the main character talks, um kind of without the use of definite articles and that kind of stuff, his accent kind of comes through there. Tony Yeah. SethH that That can make that one challenging. Tony Yeah. SethH But um yeah. Tony Yeah, I thought I thought it was this one. I was worried that that would be another slog read like that. But like when I picked up Old Man's War, just like you said, it it goes really easy, but you still get like, that's one thing I liked about Scalzi is you get like a mix of serious and fun. Tony Like he touches real serious themes, but you have always that sarcastic, funny humor throughout. SethH Yeah, well, I was going to say, um so i've I've been very much off Scalding recently just because I haven't liked his recent output. And um it's like he's gone too far in the direction of the humor part and left behind some of the some of the serious stuff. Tony Yes. SethH um And you can see in this book some of the seeds of that hyper snark stuff that you get in the starter villain. or the Kaiju Preservation Society, but it's not turned up to 11 here. Tony Yes. SethH it's It's just the right balance between really interesting, serious topics and and fun dialogue. Tony Yeah, they I've actually, similar take on Skullsy recently. I remember starting at the start of the villain. I was like, I wonder if this main character is going to be a snarky, sarcastic ah loner who's not good at his job. Oh, sure enough. SethH yeah yeah Turns out he he has a move right now. So yeah, I really hope that that's cause he gets back to writing stuff more like this because I i ended up picking up the audiobooks for the ghost brigades and the last colony and we can talk a little bit about those if you want. Tony yeah I did see in my research for this that for the first time in years, there is a new book in the old man's war universe coming out this year. SethH um SethH Oh, interesting. Okay. Tony Yeah. SethH Well, he did um the human division, which was like a, it was serialized more or less, right? You can buy it as a novel now, but it was serialized serialized I think on tor.com. Tony Yes. Tony Yes. SethH um So I don't know if it's something similar to that. I'd be curious. um I haven't read the human division yet, but if if you have, we can and get your take on it. Tony It's okay. SethH Okay. SethH Let's see. What else do we want to talk about? I mean, just anything in non-spoilers that you want to talk about. Tony I think I wrote. SethH I don't think we should talk, I had forgotten how little information John had, John Perry had in the book about what exactly happens other than we go off planet. Tony Yes. Tony Yeah. And so like going off planets, not things. So one thing I thought was neat about this book, it's in non spoilers was a skip drive. And you see in like in sci-fi books, there's always like, what are they going to use for faster than light travel? SethH Yes. Tony And this is like, well, you can't travel faster than light. So use a skip drive. And like you don't drive, you just go to a different universe. that's and That's as similar to your other one as possible. SethH Right. Tony And that's how it works. That's how you get between stars. SethH Yeah, I love the way he did that where he had the one character who had like had a background in physics, and he kept saying, it well, you don't have the math for this, you know but but let me let me simplify it. Tony yeah Yeah, I actually have that written down where Alan's, you don't have the math and that became a pervasive theme. SethH Yeah. Tony And to all the people, yes, yes, we don't have the math as a, as a career soldier. SethH ye Yeah, yeah. Tony i That works for me because I definitely don't have the math. SethH um But yeah, I liked the the the whole concept of that. I mean, if the multiverse exists, right an infinite number of universes just like ours exist um that that are Tony Yes. SethH not different in any significant way, right? And so the idea is we skip off to go to that planet to carry out this mission, but it's in a different universe. And so this universe, we never do anything in, but in this universe, another version of us skips in and accomplishes the mission, which is, which is, yeah, it it kind of bakes your brain a little bit, but, but I like it. Tony Yes, which I thought that was just a unique way of handling that. SethH I like that in my science fiction. Tony Yeah, and he dwells on it just long enough that it doesn't bake your brain all the way and then he moves on. SethH Mm-hmm. Tony So just when you're like, how does this work? And then he's like, okay, next thing. SethH Yeah, you know, I mean, he's he's not he doesn't have a hard science fiction um sensibility to it. It's it's more on on a popular level. And just that that repeated line of you don't have the math for this. He's talking to the reader and and probably himself. Tony yeah And he's right. Yeah. SethH Let's see, trying to think what else what else we can talk about in non spoilers before we get over into spoilers. Tony Let's see if I have written it. SethH I mean, we can talk a little bit about, um you know, he here he he was planning on doing this with his wife, right? And there was never any guarantee that they were going to end up assigned the same place. And and so he meets up with ah with a bunch of other people, and they call themselves the old farts, um people that he kind of develops relationships with, and and that was fun. Tony Yes. Tony I love the old farts and like the different personalities that come into that. And Harry Wilson, part of the old farts, becomes one of my favorite characters. And if you read the extended universe, he's actually one of the ones that appears in more of the books. SethH Okay, Tony but SethH Yeah, yeah, i I've only read the the three, but he's he's in a couple of them, so at least I believe he is. Tony yeah Yeah, just those guys leaving earth, their stories, talking about their lives. ah dealing with different personalities. Tony You had, what's the his roommate's name, Leroy or something like that. SethH Leo, I think, isn't it? Tony There we go. Yeah. SethH Yeah, yeah, who's who Tony It was the, you get the last non-spoiler of volunteer for the ghost brigades. And it was on a subsequent read through that. I was like, oh, I see what they meant. SethH Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that is an interesting concept. And we you yeah, we can definitely get to that. um i I like the, you know, people come from a different range of backgrounds, right? SethH they've They've gone through their whole life, and some people, you know, think they're important. And now they're conscripts, essentially, and not conscripts, they they're they're new recruits, right? Tony Yes. SethH But I love the way they refer to the one guy as private senator, ambassador, secretary, bender. Tony Oh, that's one of my favorite parts of the whole book. and That's one thing I thought he did really good with the military is that people come from everywhere. SethH Yeah. Tony And so you have all these backgrounds and now now it's not just everywhere, like backgrounds and young adolescents, you have people that have lived full lives of all sorts of lives that are now coming together. SethH Yeah. Tony So you have, you don't need to just humble some young 18 year old, you have a guy who's led a very successful political career and now he's a private and he needs to do private things. SethH Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, but he still has that instinct to to be like, well, you should listen to me. Tony and okay SethH yeah well and you know he's There's always the guy with the theory right who who's going to interject himself and say, hey, you know if we just talk to these people, then then maybe we could avoid this conflict, and then you end up a grease stain. Tony Yeah. Tony Yeah, you know, hey, yeah maybe you should listen to people that have been doing this. No, no, no, I know better. SethH Yeah, yeah. Tony Which I do love the idea of getting a, of all your new recruits coming to you that aren't, that have life experience, that aren't going to go out and do the young they the crazy things that a lot of young soldiers do. SethH um Tony which is, it was just kind of fun. Like I can only imagine being a squad leader for, or a platoon sergeant for a group of older people who at the end of their day just want to go relax and talk and don't want to stay out all night doing wild things. SethH Yeah, yeah. And there's, there's the other side of that, though, right where there's more stuff to untrain. um Because like, like when I remember when I when we took our son for swimming lessons, and and the the person who was doing the swimming lessons, I was like, Oh, you taught him to doggy battle. Well, I have to have to teach that now. Tony Yes, there's also, yeah, you have an entire life of bad habits you're gonna have to untrain. And it's gonna be way harder to get someone with life experience and to be way harder to get someone who's not 20 years old to do something incredibly dangerous. SethH Yeah, yeah. Tony that SethH Not not young and stupid, right? Tony Yes, exactly. SethH Yeah. I mean, so I often have this and and just kind of going back to the old man side of this, right as as a man in my 50s, right? I often think, man, it would be great to just go back and re experience some moments from my earlier life. SethH Like i I remember them, but I want to experience them again. Tony Oh, yeah ah heck yeah. SethH i want I want to I want to smell the ice in that hockey game that I was in, you know, um where where I Yeah, yeah. And um Yeah, it's, ah they're almost always hockey or sports, some kind of thing. SethH Like, look, I had that one really great game in Little League, you know? um but But yeah, just, that you hear the um the youth of youth is wasted on the young, but that quote, like, yeah, but very much. Tony Yes. SethH and i'm I'm at that age where I understand it. Tony Yeah, it starts to it really starts your show and that's when you realize, hey, my not I'm not youth anymore. SethH Yeah, and so the the recruits all are curious, you know, they're they're like, well, they're obviously going to soup us up in some way, they're gonna, they're gonna give us back our youth somehow, but nobody knows how it's gonna work. Tony Yeah, that's a recurring theme of the old parts it's talked about, right? How is this going to do it? Like they can't send a bunch of us 75 year olds into combat. I can barely walk. Like there has to be some trick, which for some of them is the incentive. Like they're going to come at the chance to be young again, because they think that might be how it works. SethH Yeah, because part part of it too is you serve your term and then you get to muster out and and you become a colonist, right? Tony Yes. And aside from coming from a vastly overpopulated area, that's your only chance to be a colonist. SethH Yeah, yeah. ah You want to switch over to spoilers and just we can take the gloves off and Tony Sounds good to me, lots of spoilers to talk about. SethH Yeah, I mean, it it sounds like from both of us, it's a recommendation. I think it's a really fun book. um And it's a good example of of military science fiction that has more to say than just, you know, cool battles. Tony It's a big recommendation for for me. In fact, for a lot of ah people when when they're asked about getting into sci-fi, this is one I almost always recommend because it's a good balance of, like we said earlier, seriousness and fun. SethH Yeah, yeah. All right, full spoilers from here on. I had forgotten, how much they didn't know, right, how little they actually knew ah about about the process. Tony Yes. SethH And then, you know, they end up getting that brain mapping thing done that's quite painful and and and sounds awful. um Tony Despite the fact the doctor says, nah, it's not too bad. SethH right Well, what are they going to say? SethH um And then then I think, like, everybody was super mad at the doctor. And it's like, well, I mean, you know, Tony Yeah. Yeah. SethH We have to say that and say it that way. This this book certainly doesn't take ah like a mind-brain singularity model. Tony yeah SethH Consciousness is a separate is separate from the brain and can be transferred. Tony Yes. SethH um and And that's interesting. Where the body then left behind is an empty vessel. Tony Yeah, which I thought he does well. where like he His consciousness makes him seem like he's falling into another place and then appearing in another place. And then he has like two streams at once. I thought that was really interesting. SethH Yeah, where where all of a sudden he's like, oh, I'm i'm looking at my old body. Tony Yes. SethH Yeah. um And so so one of the big things, and this is in spoilers, obviously, is that they do get a brand new body that their kind their consciousness is transferred into, and it's green. Tony And not just any new body. Yeah, it's green. You have the brain pal in you. It's young. Your body's already whipped up into shape where you can run into an Olympian speed and jump. Tony And jumping ah they do a whole long series about how everyone's body is good looking so that they all bond very well. SethH Right, and by bond you mean they they all knock boots right away. Tony Yeah. Oh, right away, straight off the bat. SethH Yeah, and there's some there's some fun stuff in there about the about the way sexy times are for for younger people. Tony Yes. SethH You're like, oh, I'd forgotten how easy that was. Tony yeah SethH Yeah. Um, but yeah, then they, they start to get, so the basic training is a little different, right? Because it's not training raw recruits into, you know, who already think they're invincible. Um, like, like, like you know, 19, 20 year olds might it's, it's training people who think they're 75 in their brain, but they have no idea what their body is capable of. Tony yes i love I actually love his training sequence. That's one thing I wrote down as a It was like the right amount of tropes where it's still like new and fun. SethH Mm-hmm. Tony We have like the the tough drill instructor, but I thought about how awesome, like as someone who spent years training people, how awesome it would be to get a whole uh, fresh group that you don't need to get in shape that you just need to train techniques. SethH right right and they just don't know it right they don't know what their bodies can do and so he's like you you're running to that tower and uh Tony Like these guys come in great shape and he's just needs to teach him. He needs to train out old habits and he needs to train in new, uh, a lot of these guys have no military training. So you're training in basic military training, uh, new space-based military training. Tony And, uh, but you don't need to get them in shape. There are, they're already in shape, which is the toughest part. So yeah. SethH If anybody takes longer than 55 minutes or whatever it is, you know then then the whole group gets to do it again. And of course, the slowest person is well under the time. Tony yeah Yeah, everyone makes it, which is awesome. SethH And so there' are yeah they're immediately out there doing 25K runs, no problem, you know at a dead sprint. Tony Yeah. And then, uh, I love how they work the brain pal into it, which is such a neat, uh, neat thing to think of. Like, uh, how we, your brain pal connects your weapon and how they spend, uh, basic training, learn how to use, use their brain pal to switch their switch loads, which ammo types, how it connects to their brain, how they can send maps and routes and updates and battle plans to each other without even talking. SethH Yeah. Tony Um, but how useful can you have a terrible thought to really think about it about what the brain tell your head could be. SethH Well, yeah, and and he goes through some of that, right where where it's like, yeah, it's great that you can be so cohesive as a unit, right where you know what everybody's thinking and feeling at the moment. um And the Ghost Brigades gets even more into this about about the way shows it through emotion and that kind of stuff. SethH um But then when one of your platoon is killed, everybody feels it. Tony Yes. SethH um I did like that they all nicknamed their brain pal, because it's ah it's like they they can rename Alexa. Tony Yeah, yeah, and they're all just these snarky, yeah. SethH They're all num nuts, Nimrod. And those those are the PG ones. Tony ah Yeah, yeah, the most of them are not ready for air. SethH so SethH Yeah, yeah. um but so yeah and And then you know it it doesn't seem like, the the training sequence doesn't go on for ages, right? it it just Tony No, it's not too long. It's actually less than I think than the the whole portion of them getting their new bodies and traveling on the spacecraft. I think the training sequence is relatively brief. SethH It is, yeah. And and so then you know they're basically immediately out into battles. And um the the one thing in the in the training that I thought was interesting was the whole idea of the smart blood, um where where these bodies are useful and expensive, and so they don't want them to just bleed out because they got shot in the leg. SethH And so the the smart blood is able to to more quickly you know clot and um Tony Yeah. SethH and heal and and all that kind of stuff. Tony and it carries the oxygen better. SethH And it carries, it, right, carries oxygen better. So like, you're not going to drown and in a couple minutes. Like, you know, you're staying under for six minutes. Tony Yeah. SethH um Tony they They have the whole sequence where all of them are underwater. Even though they're freaking out, they're scared of it. You have, uh, so like it helps them with their running because oxygen trout carries blood better. SethH Yeah. Tony So it helps them for their running. Uh, they're able to breathe underwater. SethH Yeah. Tony The, the quick clotting is awesome part. Um, I thought like that they're green because they have chlorophyll in the skin. So you get a little extra energy, which I was like, well, that's a, that's a neat idea. SethH yeah Tony I would never thought about that. SethH Yeah, that that one kind of reminded me. Tony I have not, no. SethH Have you ever read Sentence to Prism by Ellen Dean Foster? um So that's a fun one because it's like a really bright world. I'm like, I don't know if the sun ever sets. um And so at some point a character gets injured and the locals modify her with with these crystal parts of her body that can do like photosynthesis. Tony Oh, that's cool. SethH um and Yeah, it's really really interesting. That one's, it's on the list. and I've been talking to a friend of mine about, hey, let's do an episode on that. i want to reread that This is good. Tony I'll have to add that to my to be read list. I love little parts of that and sci-fi where they're like, what if? And then they insert it into, OK, this is how it could work. SethH Yeah, yeah, yeah. um Let's see. Tony and SethH So so early on, John Perry ends up getting a ah commendation because he realizes that he can kind of make a custom firing sequence for his weapon that allows them to defeat the consu. Tony Yes. SethH And he also and and you know, up to me, the more important thing is, he kind of astutely notices, this looks like a religious ceremony happening before the battle. Tony Yeah, you could do a whole podcast just on the con suit. They're so interesting. SethH Yeah. Tony And that's like his first battle. And so yeah, he gets there, he notices, they're like you said, they're going through almost religious rites and this has to be done before the battle starts. And then ah he has the aspect where I think, what is it? Tony One, like an armor piercing round followed by an explosive round. So you're piercing their tough skin and then causing your damage after that. And it's after he comes up with that that firing solution that they just slaughter him. SethH Yeah, because. SethH Yeah, and and that that becomes really important later with the concert have like a carapace, like a like a beetle kind of armor. Tony Yes. Yeah. SethH Yeah. Tony That's one thing I really like is you have to like, they have the different battles. You have the one with the Kansu, then next they're fighting and like teddy bear squirrels, and then they're fighting and little animals. SethH right Tony And then you have the RA, like these little and inserts into like the various different types of situations you could have on their fighting aliens. SethH hello Yes. SethH Yeah, the little Lilliputian ah planet as well, which, that's one of those things where I'm like, are we sure that we couldn't give them 20 acres someplace and they'd be perfectly happy and we could live in harmony? Tony Yeah. Tony Yeah, like that would be a whole planet worth of them. SethH But then I'm starting to sound like private senator, ambassador, secretary, bender. um Tony which is awesome. He has ah his time on the teddy bear one, which is which is kind of interesting because you see that he has his whole political diatribe that he gives him up front before the battle. And then he actually goes full full private mode for a little while following, and that time I think it's Corporal Perry through um the towns and they're as they're engaged in the, ah I can't remember the name of that species. SethH Yeah, I don't remember either. Tony um Um, and then at the end he sees them, I think conducting their religious ceremony. And then the full, the full, uh, ambassador Senator Bender comes out only to be, uh, because he knows best dies to work terribly. SethH Mm hmm. Yeah, and you know at some point you do get kind of quickly into the – not quickly into the territory, but like Perry starts to crack up a little bit where where he's he he has he has a moment of crisis, right, where they're fighting like the one inch high foes that they that they're just stepping on, right? They're they're just Kaiju, right? um And, and his, ah his CEO, I think it's Lieutenant Keys at that point, you know, tells him, look, this is this is normal. SethH This is everybody goes through this at some point. Tony yeah Yeah, you're right on time. It's like, what did you do when you had your freak out? SethH Yeah. Tony He's like, I took a shot at the lieutenant. SethH Right. Tony and SethH Yeah. um and And I like the the part where they just kind of reminisce about what they miss about being human. It's very sweet that that Perry is like, I miss being married. Tony Yeah, yeah, I like that. SethH Yeah. Tony And that was a recurrent thing. A lot of his stuff would come back to it to his ah um his wife. And I really liked the way they connect that and have that a recurring theme through the book. I remember Harry talking, I just flaunt a morning with a hardcover novel. SethH yeah Yeah, big time. Tony Oh my God, I get that. SethH Yeah, um so then we have the pivotal battle of coral with against the array, which I would not have known how to pronounce that if I hadn't been listening to the ghost brigades. um Tony Same, I read the book twice before I heard the audio book and would have never gone that way. I was like, oh, the RA, okay. SethH No. Tony I wonder what else I've been mispronouncing. SethH Yeah. yeah Yeah, that's always the fun thing about and about audiobooks. i mean Sometimes you know you do get audiobooks where you're like, is that the way you really pronounce that? You don't want to put all your eggs in one narrator's basket, but but usually with with names and and species and that kind of stuff, you can you can trust them. Tony yeah Yeah, the Battle of Coral, that's where he gets, SethH um Tony yeah Uh, oh yeah, they get shot. SethH The whole fleet gets ambushed, right? Tony Yeah. The whole fleet gets ambushed. He's shot down like a a lone survivor. Uh, he's once again, after some terrible interrogation, he's, uh, he gets another accommodation. Tony Now he goes from corporal to Lieutenant. And I think it just a matter of months. SethH Right, right. Tony Yeah. SethH That's an odd promotion pattern, but, you know, they they do things different in the in the colonial militia. Tony Yes. He even remarks on it, though. But then ah then after the Battle of Coral, we're introduced to some of the more interesting ones where you have their John Scalzi's take on special forces in the in the old man's war universe. SethH Yeah, yeah, and right because he's he's really torn up ah during that battle, right? He's the only survivor um of his shuttle, which was one of the only ones to even make it off of their ships because the array are able to ambush them as they come out of their skip, which shouldn't be possible. Tony Yeah. Tony Yes. yeah so they Yeah, so they're just shooting down everyone as they come out, do some quick thinking, they survive. SethH yeah Tony And ah he's just like, he loses like an arm or a leg, the lower part of his jaw. SethH ah Yeah, one of his legs is basically torn off his jaws torn off and he gets rescued by somebody but with a familiar voice. Tony Yeah, and it sounds like his wife and then he wakes up and I guess they call him a back to tank. SethH Yeah, more or less. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. Where that's interesting, the the whole limb replacement stuff. I assume you've heard the forever war. Tony Now, yes, I love that book. SethH but so So when they're on the planet, I think it's ah just called heaven or something. right and they like The main character there, Mandela, is like regrowing a leg. Tony Yes. SethH um but But in this, he's basically given a prosthetic that then his body grows into ah with nanotechnology. Tony yeah Yeah, like his DNA goes into the process, like just gradually takes over and and what was a prosthetic becomes a ah new limb, which I thought was a very interesting take. SethH And that was really interesting. SethH Yeah, yeah, yeah, really interesting stuff. um And yeah I love that like the rest of the old forts, I mean, the old forts have started to get killed off, right? And they're they're not all together anymore. SethH um but But some of his friends, when he tells them about, look, I saw my wife, and then all of a sudden she shows up in the and the cafeteria. Tony Yeah. SethH He's like, I'm just gonna go thank her for saving my life. And and of course it goes phenomenally poorly. Tony Yeah, just absolutely terrible. SethH Mm-hmm. Tony And it turns out that his wife is special forces, but not traditional. So it was like, then you get introduced to the concept that he uses for special forces where through his through this other character that was his wife, you get to see how they do it. Tony We're like, the people that don't make it to 75, that die beforehand, um are become their special forces, which, alone is interesting aspects. so Like they're born into service. Tony So everyone else not is not only like a volunteer for the army, but the people, so their special forces are the only non-volunteers, which I thought was an interesting aspect because if you look, one of the almost universal aspects of special operations and special forces throughout most militaries is there's, is even in a conscripted army, SethH Yeah. SethH Right. Tony where everyone is forced to serve or compulsory service, your Special Operations and Special Forces are almost universally volunteers and there's an assessment and selection process because the nature of Special Operations and Special Forces is hard, it's difficult, more difficult than others and you need a certain type of person for it and so usually like volunteers and they work for it and there's a buy-in aspect to it. SethH Hmm. SethH Yeah. Tony But in this, they're the only ones that don't have a choice. They're born into it. Uh, there's no assessment of personality. There's no, like you don't need to assess them physically because they're all physically fit, but they're the only ones that have no choice in service, which I thought was interesting. SethH Yeah. Yeah, and and the other important part to to mention, and this is covered more fully in the Ghost Brigades, is that you know, as part of the enlistment process, they give DNA samples and that kind of stuff. SethH And so so the army is, or the and the colonial forces are creating these advanced bodies for them too to be hosted in, right? Tony Yes. SethH Well, and then when the person dies before they're able to to use them, do they throw away all that expensive and useful technology? No, they don't. um They repurpose it, and instead of transfer a conscious conscience into it, SethH um not a conscience, consciousness, there we go. Tony ah Yeah, yeah. SethH I knew I could get it. Now, I'll leave that in. So, you know, people can realize what an idiot I am. Tony but SethH um But they, they use the brain pal, right to essentially substitute for consciousness. Tony Yeah. Yeah. They just sort of wake them up and and a new consciousness develops. SethH Yeah, and so so like, that whole concept is really interesting about, you know, they're a few days old, right, but but they, the maturity comes along a lot more quickly, right? Tony Yes. Yeah. They don't, they don't have a childhood. They don't need to be reared. Like they, they, like, I think, uh, Jane Sagan, the character that would, uh, is in the body of. John Perry's former wife makes that remark. Tony Like I was just born with all the knowledge of history and science and math immediately. ah and but And that's another inverse is like, usually like you take your special operations and special forces from within your force. SethH Yeah. Tony So they already have some maturity, some experience. These are the least experienced people you have. Though by the age of six, they're all extremely battle-hardened. SethH Right. SethH Well, and they're, they're so um kind of bound up with their unit too. That's one of the things that makes them really effective is is that that it's like using the brain pal to communicate is second nature, they can communicate faster than normal humans can. Tony Yes. Tony Yeah, and they remarked that any time that they have to talk to the other ones, it's painful that for them because the real borns, as they call them, speak so slowly and don't use their brain pals and SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. It's like when I accidentally start listening to a podcast at 1.0 speed, um I'm like, wait, nobody talks like this. SethH um and So i I really enjoy the the passages where jane you know jane and Jane and Perry make up at some point, right? Where where she's like, look, sorry. Tony Yes. SethH i i there how How should I react to to that knowledge, right? And you know she's not prepared for it. Emotional maturity is not really a thing with with the special forces. Tony Yeah. And you get like those, these little touching moments in that and outside of this, like the military sci-fi aspect where he's teaching her what a human life was like. Tell me about your, like, what, what she was like. SethH who Tony She liked baking pies and we like, and talks about like, Hey, we had a marriage. Our marriage had some problems, but we always loved each other. And it was like those little touching elements where she's learning what a normal person is like, and they don't ever get to see that. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah, yeah, and I liked that. I felt like a lesser author might have had them get together a little more quickly. um I like the fact that this is, you know, it's basically put off until the end of the ghost brigades. Tony Yes. Tony yeah Yeah. That's a good point. I hadn't really thought about that as an aspect of it, and it could have been easy for them to just lay her husband and wife boom back together, but no, they actually, there's a little more ah intimacy to it the way it's done. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah, yeah. So it turns out that the consu gave the tachyon detectors to the array. and um And so Perry gets assigned, and this is where he ends up but being promoted to ah to an officer, right being made an officer, commissioned as an officer. Tony Yes. Tony yes SethH There we go. um And then they're like, well, we need to go ask the consu some questions. Tony yeah SethH and the way we get access to to ask these questions as we have a arena battle like from the original Trek with the Gorn right with we choose five they choose five of us yeah I guess they they bring out their five warriors they they actually hand pick the warriors and the only reason that we're able to do it is because they really respect you because you slaughtered them and it it Tony Yeah, like you slaughtered them like 2000 katsu, so you've won them over. And so we get to have like the amount of, was it the amount of time people they have that win in single combat equals the amount of questions they get to ask. SethH Yeah, yeah. And so they they they get to do, and and it's really cool, like just the different fighting technique that they that the special forces have, right? Tony Yes. SethH Because they're willing to sacrifice a limb because they know they can regrow it. Tony Yeah, like so that's one thing I think the author marks. I thought it was really cool. like the The soldiers were going close and like they'll they'll give up an arm and a leg just to go in for the killing blow knowing that like their smart blood will clot it and they'll just be taken off and two weeks later they'll have a new arm. SethH Right, and that's that's not the kind of thing that somebody with 75 years in a normal human body is going to be able to do. Tony No. SethH Yeah. Tony That's where you have the advantage of the young people who are like, yeah, I'll do that. SethH yeah um And so, yeah, they get they get to essentially confirm, yeah, the cons who gave them that that technology. And I love the bit about where he asks, you know you're you're so much superior in terms of technology to to everybody else, the consular. SethH Why don't you just wipe us out? and And I love that they say, well, because we love you. Tony yeah SethH um And and it's it's really interesting. Tony Yeah. SethH like they They feel like they have this res responsibility to all the other species who are lesser to help bring them into their cycle of rebirth, I think they call it. Tony they're Like we're like children to them. SethH Yeah, yeah. And and it's a very kind of Klingon thing, right? Like only only through the through combat, can you can you be redeemed more or less? Tony Yes. And I like how they have the guy who, uh, the council has chosen to talk with them. SethH Yeah. Tony Like, I am unclean for speaking to you with your words. I'm unclean for being in your presence. Luckily after this battle, I will be allowed to die hopefully with some honor. SethH Yeah, well yeah the the well, he was dishonored before, right? And and so that that's they choose those those people, and this is the their way of redeeming themselves. Tony Yeah. SethH And then the entire area where they're where they're having the battle is unclean and so they implode it and flush it down a black hole and i love like every every time it mentions something like that um perry's like which i still feel is overkill like you know you made your point Tony yeah Yes, a little excessive. Yeah. SethH um Tony And then I think for that one is when he's promoted to captain, which I thought was fine. Like just keeps going, which is, or maybe that's after the next battle of, uh, coral. But that's when they they find out from the Kansu that they only gave, they gave yes, the Kansu gave the skip drive it or the skip traffic detector to the RA, but they only gave him one. Tony So they the RA don't really know how to use the technology. SethH Right. Tony So they know that, like yes, they gave him one, and yes, it's on the planet. And so theyre well we have to go get it. SethH Yeah, yeah, and and it's interesting with Perry having to kind of be integrated with the Special Forces, even though he can't communicate at the rate that they can. And so they kind of have to, i like Jane is like, okay, you'll you'll be with me. SethH I'll handicap myself having to drag you along essentially. Tony Yeah. SethH But then he ends up saving her life and and disabling those the weapon. And I think he comes out with like a thumb drive that has like the the yeah architecture for for the actual piece. Tony Yeah. Tony yeah Yeah, they were trying to capture it, but they had to destroy it. And so, yeah, he took like the the owner's manual. Well, I think the digital copy of the owner's manual is like, all right, so like but this is the next best thing. SethH Yeah. SethH Mm-hmm. Yeah, and and some of that reminded me of in the Ender's Game series when it talks about the Ansible and um where they're like, well, once we knew this was possible, SethH then we were able to figure out how to do it, right? Tony yeah SethH um Because we found that the debuggers could do it, the formics could do it. Tony Yeah. SethH And so yeah, okay, we can we're gonna be able to figure that out. And so like having that, um knowing the technology exists for detecting the the skip drives and then having the owner's manual, you know, eventually that'll probably be fruitful. Tony Yeah. Yes, and Harry gets put on helping figure out how it works. And I love that once again, that that favorite line of, i don't I thought you didn't have the bath. He's like, why don't? But it turns out no one else does either. SethH Right. Yeah. Yeah. This this math is is well beyond anybody. So if you know, I'm as good a choice as as anyone. And you know, with with the brain bomb pal and everything, I'm sure they're they're smarter than your average yeah bear. SethH And so ah he can he can he can learn it. Tony Yeah. Tony Yeah, SethH um Yeah, so is I mean, that that kind of wraps up the old man's war. If you want to talk about any of the other books, I didn't take a bunch of notes on them. Tony ah that yeah I will happily talk about more about that. SethH I Tony The one after this is Ghost Brigades, which goes more into how the Special Forces work. is the I think Jane Sagan, his wife, becomes sort of the main protagonist as well as, um I guess the antagonist does as well. SethH Yeah. Tony But you gotta view like through like the ghost brigades come into that. Harry Wilson makes another little pop-up in that one too. um And that that's a that's a fun book. ah but the I'm trying to think of what all happens in that book too. Tony i i like i'll So like you, I didn't put no stone. SethH Well, there's the human traitor. Yeah, there's the human traitor character that they're that they're trying to to track down, right? Tony Yes, that's right. SethH um And also there's an array traitor who's now working for the humans. who's I really enjoy that character in in those those two books. Tony yes SethH and and And so you kind of have the the two sides of that. But going back to kind of the, I can't remember, let me see, what quote was the name? Tony Yes. SethH it was ah private senator, ambassador, secretary, bender, um with with with with his theories and saying, look, um the problem with the with the, what is it called, the colonial defense force? Tony yeah Tony Defense force or colonial, union colonial defense force is the military arm of the colonial union. SethH Yeah. SethH Right, yeah. Tony Yeah. SethH So he says the the problem with the colonial defense force is it's too easy to use, right? Tony Yes. SethH it's it's that when When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail kind of idea, right? Tony Yes. SethH Where it's like, we're we're we might be too quick to send in the military, in a situation where maybe we want to send in an embassy, right? Where we want to send in ambassadors and and see if we can talk things out and go, okay, yeah, we don't need that planet. SethH But he does he does talk about how you know essentially there's lots of planets that support life, but not all of them are ideal for humans. And a lot of other species need essentially the same conditions. Tony yes Tony Yeah, like there's, yeah, life can be done in lots of different ways, but yeah, there's also this this small spectrum where almost all of it exists. And then you get to see over the course of the sequels where it does gradually shift from like strictly military sci-fi, where it stays in that theme, but you see more of the ambassador aspect where I think by the fourth and fifth book, which are, I have them here. Tony the human division and the end of all things, where you have the Harry Wilson character who's with an ambassador team for the colonial union and earth. And so you're actually seeing them trying to use the talking aspect more. SethH Yeah, yeah. um and ah And I like that, you know, one one of the cameras began with an R, like Ruiz, that kind of name um is like, well, you know, the thing is, he was right. SethH it It probably is too easy to send us in. Tony Yeah. SethH but But that doesn't mean that in the middle of a battle, you want to go and try and form a treaty. Tony Yes, there's a time and a place for it. that when When you've just been shooting their people up all around town, that's not the time to go dang with the olive branch. SethH Yeah. Tony They're gonna be a little mad at you. SethH Yeah, so in the in the other two books in the first trilogy, you you get the um the creation of the conclave, um which it's like a, it's almost like a Cold War situation, right? Tony Yes. SethH It's ah it's like from from the colonial unions perspective, that's the Russian block, right? ah the The Soviet block. It's not necessarily that way. And I like that eventually kind of the the series comes around to, well, who's the bad guys here? SethH um Tony Yes. SethH because because certainly the conclave is doing some some things that you're like, I mean, wiping out wiping out entire colonies, that's that's not a great look. Tony That's a bit excessive, yeah. And what is it? SethH Yeah. Tony The conflict says, hey, all this fighting is just over colonies. So everyone just holds the colonies, they got no new colonies, and let's have peace. And they, yeah, like you said, they they keep that peace by, if you violate this, we'll just wipe off all of your life on a planet. SethH Yeah. Yeah. SethH yeah And and you you get some of the, um what information do you give the troops in those situations, right? Tony Yeah. SethH Where you you you show them, look look at this, they wiped off a ah colony and then they they see the unredacted version of it where there was an offer of you can evacuate your people, you know, can you can move your people off of this and we'll we'll destroy the colony, but we don't have you don't have to die. Tony yeah Tony I know if if you're gonna do this, we're gonna force your hand, so. SethH Yeah, I liked um kind of going back to talking about the ah the the lack of suitable planets, right? There's there's ah there's a limited number of of places where they can go. SethH And there's one where like they try and go there and there's just this slime mold that they can't deal with. Tony Yeah, so that' that's one thing I love the way they use the old parts is so you get like their their brain pal will send their last little bit of life to ah to all the rest of them with their group. So you get these other little peaks into the windows of the old man's war universe where like you said, I think it was Thomas who was the one who is the big eater who was always trying to eat all the food. SethH right Tony dies when the he eats the slime mold. And that that was an interesting one where they go there and they can't figure out what's wrong until all of a sudden this universal attack around the colony comes from the slime mold that had consciousness. SethH yeah yeah Yeah, it's fun it's fun to like to to have authors play around with what what aliens might look like. Tony Yeah. Yeah, and then you had the other one who they were like, in a like one of them died, I think it was Maggie that died in a, Uh, Colin, it was kind of like Bespin, I guess you would say, where it was like it, uh, you had a, some sort of unit that was mining the atmosphere. Another unit that was mining on the ground and she fell to her death from that. SethH Yeah, yeah. SethH um So have you read have you've read the entire series? Tony Yes. SethH Is it is it correct that so Zoe is is a character that comes in in the ghost brigades? I think she's the daughter of the human traitor. Tony Yes, she's the daughter of the human traitor and then she becomes like the adopted daughter of ah John Perry and Jane Sagan and as because he they become colonial ministers, which you see in um ah is that one called the last colony. SethH Right. SethH the last colony. Yeah, yeah. Tony yeah And then so you get, which actually became, I think my second favorite book of the series, which is Zoe's tale, which he wrote to fix a plot hole in last colony where you had those, uh, they're like the wolf like species. SethH Okay. SethH Oh, the yeah, the the sentient species on the on the planet on the colony planet on the Tony Yeah. Yeah. So you get the entire last colony just now through the perspective of Zoe, which is kind of fun. SethH Okay, okay, i it I haven't read that one yet. and And I had heard some people are like, well, read one or the other, um but it sounds like you get a fuller picture if you if you read both. Tony You do. So I read the entire series, took a year break because someone said like, it's best to have a fresh mind when you read it, took a year break. And then I read Zoe's Tale and it was a lot of fun. It's a blast. SethH Okay, all right, maybe maybe I'll give it a few months or I'll put a hold request on it. i My library had it and it's like, it's gonna take 13 weeks to get to you. So I'm like, okay, well, maybe I'll do that. Tony next That's just about right. Yeah. SethH Yeah, yeah, cool. um um Anything else you want to to talk about, about Old Man's War, the series, anything? Tony think I think let me look over my notes for a second. I think we've covered most of the other stuff. It's a lot of fun to talk about. Let me see. um about Tony No, I think I've covered most of the stuff in my notes. I had i don't know if you have any more to to add. SethH No, I got, I got all through my notes. But yeah, it's, you know, it's a really engaging first certainly first book, and then the the series is is really interesting too. And I like the fact that he, it's like, he pulls on the thread of something that he set up in the first book, right? SethH And he's like, okay, let's let's talk about the ghost brigades. Tony yes Yes. SethH What does that even mean? You get you get little hints of it in the first book. um And, and then much more fully explored in the in the second one. And I i really enjoyed that. Tony Yeah, the whole early aspect of how they how they're how they come into being, how they're how they're trained, how they learn to use their brain pal, it's just really fascinating. Like the entire book is worth like reading just as here the that goes for getting sold or like gaining consciousness and going through all the other things that goes for that. SethH Yeah, yeah. um So the the human division, which which I mentioned earlier was serialized. um That one, does does that follow any of the same characters? SethH Did you mention that it it had Harry in it? Tony It does. SethH Okay. Tony Yeah, so Harry is in the human division. The human division at the end of all things. And yeah, they there are sort they were serialized. And so you get a, it's kind of a bunch of short stories becoming a novel. Tony And you do get one theme when you're around Harry Wilson being embedded with these ambassadors. um And then you just see like, cause at that point, Earth is brought in, is allowed to send people out into the colonial union and other races. So the embargo that they sort of had on Earth is stopped and you get ambassadors from Earth, you get ambassadors from the colonial union, you get to see people on Earth interact around colonial defense soldiers for the first time. But then you also, I think it's in the end of all things where you get other perspectives as well. At that point, a lot of like the, ah there's sort of a ah loss of the public's will to fight. Tony And so you start to see like perspective of soldiers who just don't want to do it anymore or who want to sue for peace. or ah like you get You get more perspectives brought into the universe, which makes it a lot of fun to see. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, if you're going to create a universe, then you can play around in it, right? Tony Yeah, exactly. SethH Yeah. Well, cool. I'll definitely check the rest of the series out at some point, because I'm really good at reading the first book in the series and then never coming back to it. Tony Yeah, i very similar. SethH And, uh, yeah. Yeah. Tony A good series will hook me. SethH So, so I was glad that I at least got the first three, because that kind of, it kind of puts a bow on, on the whole thing, but, um, but I would like to go back and check out Zoe's Tale at some point. Tony I think the first three in Zoey's Tale are really good. oh a Human Division and, of all things, are fun. They don't quite have the same spark as the rest of them, but if you enjoy the old man's war universe, you'll enjoy the books just to get more of it. Tony And they do have ah another book coming out this year. SethH Okay. Tony Skalzi's going back and writing his first new book in the series, and it's supposed to be released at the end of the year. SethH Okay. I'll be curious, you know, how how if it's more similar to the previous books in the series or more like his more recent output. Tony Yeah. Yeah. SethH um Tony ah ah here If it's a jobless slacker who is really smart, but just unmotivated, we'll see. SethH Yeah, I mean, some of some of it I get, right? Where where like reading the intro to some of his books, it's it's like, you know, I wrote this on during the pandemic and it was this was my therapy, right? Tony Yeah. SethH And and so I get it. and the And it's just, they're not the kind of books that I want honored with awards, um you know? Tony Yeah, and also, so I think Kaiju Preservation Society was nominated. SethH the Tony I don't think it didn't win, but it was kind of surprising because he even said it on the jacket, where he's like, this book is Pepsi. SethH Yeah. Tony It's nothing it's nothing that special. SethH Yes. Mm-hmm. Tony but And it is, it's it's a fun book, but yeah, I don't know if it's worthy of honor or somebody on that. SethH Yeah, and and starter villain was the same way for me. I'm like, this just isn't what I want. um So to say nothing of the fact that it's a cat book, but yeah. Tony it's the ah Yeah, exactly. The Talking Cats. SethH Oh, I got an alert that we've lost connection, but it looks like we never, we never really lost anything. You're still there. Tony Okay, yeah, I'm still here. SethH Okay. um All right, we should go ahead and wrap up. So normally, I would ask you for if you wanted to give out any contact contact information, but I know you don't in this case. Tony Yeah, sorry, in this case I cannot. SethH and so ah Okay. Just for for security reasons, and that's that's totally fine. But, ah you know, i I want to thank you for reaching out to me and and connecting on this book. It's been a long time, I think, since we first ah connected, but we finally got here. Tony Yes, I really appreciate you having me on. I'm a big fan of the podcast. Actually, every time I read a Hugo winner, well, the first thing I do is the next day I listen to your podcast. SethH Nice, nice. Tony I really appreciate being on. I enjoyed a great deal. And I'll always take any chance I can to geek out over old man's voice, a personal favorite. SethH nice all right well Tony thanks again bye now Tony Thanks, Seth!