SethH Hi there, and welcome back to the Hugo is There podcast. I'm your host, Seth Heasley, and this is a regular old episode. This this one's about a Hugo nominee, Hugo finalist, which is Glory Road by Robert A. Heinlein, which was the nineteen sixty four one of the 1964 finalists for the Hugo. SethH And for this podcast, I have James Hedrick from the podcast Something About Dragons. Hi there, James. Thanks for joining me. James Hedrick Hey, Seth, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. SethH Yeah, yeah. um I think you reached out when you were kind of just getting your podcast off the ground. So i want you to tell people about yourself about the podcast. James Hedrick Oh, yeah. So I um it was one of those things. I love listening to podcasts. Listen who goes there for a while. Listen to a whole bunch of other history and and variety podcasts. i I used to have quite the long commute. James Hedrick So it was a nice way to spend the time on the train and going into D.C. SethH Hmm. James Hedrick And I was looking around for podcast about fantasy books specifically. I really like. you know, your Tolkiens, your Eddings, et cetera. And I really liked that. And I looked around and there's just not as many sort of, um, sort of podcasts about fantasy as you would, as you would think there should be, or at least I thought there should be. James Hedrick And so I thought about it. And one of the things that I thought was, you know what, I'd like to go back and read some of the older fantasy books. Um, sort of start from the beginning and um and that's sort of what came became something about dragons. I started in 1900 with um things like The Wind in the Willows and, you know, books like that, a lot of ah lot of kids books, kind of late Victorian type of stuff. And then kind of working my, right now working my way through the 20s and the 30s and then getting into pulp right now. And, you know, pretty soon I'll get into the the middle of the century and everything starts to get weird and we get science fiction and space opera or crossovers and SethH Yeah. James Hedrick like the book we're going to talk about today. And so that's kind of, that was kind of my thing. I decided i had I had a little free time on my hands. I was a former federal employee and for, ah if anybody knows what's going on with federal employees right now, there's less of us than there used to be. James Hedrick And I was one of those people. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And so I took some time and and put this idea that I've been having for a while together and putting it out there and trying to keep it regularly updated. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick So we'll see how that goes now. SethH isn James Hedrick Thank SethH The thing that I have learned from listening to your podcast, which I'm really enjoying, by the way, um i'm not I'm not necessarily reading along with with everything, but but I still enjoy kind of hearing and you break it down, um is just like how long it took for fantasy be a to be a named genre. James Hedrick you. James Hedrick Of course. yeah SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Yes. I thought that, I thought that that was really interesting too. It was something that I sort of knew a little bit about, but you sort of reading into it, you know, there's, there's sword and sorcery or it's, um you know, the, they talk about the fantastic or they talk about romances. James Hedrick Tolkien called everything that he wrote a romance. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And so you get so many of these people and it's not until you get really into the sixties and mostly when they publish Tolkien and paperback that, Fantasy becomes a genre sort of in the commercial sense that we think of it. James Hedrick And so it took a long time. SethH Right. James Hedrick So, I mean, there wasn't even a word for it for most of the time that I've been covering. SethH Yeah. Fairy stories, right? James Hedrick So fairy stories is what Tolkien called it in his academic work. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick ah part of one of my One of the episodes is a whole discussion of the essay of on fairy stories by Tolkien. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And then ah the one he wrote on Beowulf. And both of those here refers to romances and fairy stories. He talks about the act of fantasy, creation of fantasy, but not as a genre that we would call it. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. Yeah. Even science fiction is that way, right? Where you have, you have all the old school pulps that were planetary romances, right? James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Planetary romance, big one. ah SethH Yeah. James Hedrick That was, that's that's one that gets thrown around. Yeah. It doesn't really solidify until really middle of the 20th century at best is when you start to really get the commercial. And I think, you know, I don't know how much interest it's interesting to me, but it, you know, it's the commercialization and you start to get the paperbacks, I think is where you really start to get the publishing starting to define what science fiction is and what fantasy is. SethH Yes. James Hedrick And you get a commercialization of the genre. SethH Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I think I lost my train of thought. This happens. James Hedrick ah please i i've I've gotten used to it myself, trust me. SethH That's the magic of editing. You gotta love it. SethH Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick speak SethH Um, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that, but that's okay. James Hedrick That's okay. SethH Some, some of those are dead ends and and then it'll pop right back in at some point. James Hedrick That's alright. SethH Right. James Hedrick Oh yeah, we'll we'll figure it out in a few minutes. SethH Um, oh yeah. Yeah. ah So kind of at the risk of, I think, think I mentioned to you that my idea for doing a ah podcast called foundational fantasy, kind of talking about where people got connected to the genre. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH Do you want to talk about like where to come from for you? James Hedrick Yeah, I really liked that idea. And I think that, you know, I think that everybody, you know, if you're in a genre, a speculative fiction genre, if you like science fiction, if you like horror, if you like fantasy, everybody has a book or a time that they got into it. James Hedrick um I've been reading, you know, fantasy forever. I mean, mine's not as interesting as it might otherwise be. my My grandmother got me a copy of The Hobbit when I was a kid. I couldn't have been more than seven or eight years old, probably. James Hedrick And just such a good introduction into fantasy literature to read The Hobbit at the age in which you're probably old enough to understand you know most of the work. James Hedrick It's not a terribly dense or or difficult to read book in terms of the the verbiage. SethH yeah James Hedrick But being able to read it and having that story, and it's a great adventure story, and it's a great story the second time you read it and the third. And I think I can't tell you how many times I've probably read The Hobbit. And I just, you know, I love that. James Hedrick I love the whole idea of there being a secondary world out there that, you know, was was interesting and fun and full of spiders that you could stab and, you know, SethH Right. James Hedrick throw rocks at and stuff like that. So I really enjoyed that. of course, Tolkien, you know, a hobbit's really good because it's a very, it's very much written as a children's book. um And Bilbo is a, is a, is a really good stand in for the audience, you know, and he, you know, he walks you through there really good. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Oh, speaking of children. Hi, buddy. You were supposed to be in bed. My big guy. All right. Go climb into bed. The magic of editing. right. Speaking of my tiny little hobbit there. SethH Yep. Yep. James Hedrick But, uh, but yeah, it's, it's, it's one of those, I read the, I read the Hobbit and then I couldn't get enough. SethH Yep. James Hedrick I read Tolkien. I read, uh, Connecticut Yankee, Yankee and King Arthur's court. I did that, you know, I was, that was a big one I really enjoyed. I read a lot of Mark Twain, um, as well. James Hedrick He has a lot of fantastic stuff, you know, outside of the, the, the books that most people would know. And then I just, you know I got into it. I read Eddings. I read Piers Anthony, um, Wouldn't recommend that one to anybody, but, um, uh, sorry, sorry, Pierce. James Hedrick Uh, you know, I read a lot of, uh, just anything with anything with dragons on the cover that was about 900 pages, you know, uh, memory sorrow and thorn was one of my favorites when I was a kid. It didn't take, it didn't take me long. James Hedrick I think I was primed and ready for it. So I, I dove, I dove in head first, hadn't come back up since. SethH Nice. SethH Yeah. So it's interesting that, that you know, you're you're a fantasy fan and you had you had pitched some kind of fantasy books to and for us to talk about today. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH And then you're like, hey, how about we do like the one Heinlein fantasy book? Yeah. James Hedrick Oh, God. i This book, it it Glory Road, it is such a quintessential Heinlein novel. And then it is also such a... Hey, buddy, you're supposed to be in bed, okay? James Hedrick It's such a quintessential Heinlein novel. And also, like, he's writing outside, you know, of his normal genre, the normal genre of sci-fi. SethH Right. James Hedrick But it reads exactly like everything else he ever, you know, he ever read. it's not a ah It's not a very wide departure for Heinlein. But it is a really, you know, i think it's interesting insight both into... James Hedrick I think it could be somewhat of an interesting insight to him as a writer and then sort of where the genre is at the time. So he's blending a bit of that, you know, like he would planetary romance, a little space, old school space opera and, you know, his, his digressions. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And then I think you just want to talk about dragons for a while. I really think that was all he wanted to do. So SethH Yeah, yeah. I wanted to look at what it was up against in 1964. Yeah, James Hedrick what was, what was it up against? SethH um James Hedrick I remember looking at this the other day. SethH yeah let me look here. So in 64, it was up against Waystation, which was the winner by Clifford Simak, and then Witch World by Andre Norton, the original Dune World, which was the serialized version of Dune. James Hedrick Okay. James Hedrick Ooh, the serialized version of Dune. SethH Yeah, and and Cat's Cradle by Vonnegut. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick By Vonnegut. SethH So, yeah. James Hedrick And it was, yeah, here we go. The Waystation by, yeah, it was the one that won it. That's, wow, that's a, oof. SethH Mm-hmm. Yeah. James Hedrick Oh, that's, he's definitely number five, i think, in that particular list of ah finalists. SethH Yeah, I... So, just just kind of big picture. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH you know Wikipedia calls this a science fantasy, right? It's and it's not even, like, real... James Hedrick Yeah. SethH it's It's the most science fiction fantasy book that I've read in quite some time. James Hedrick it It is definitely like it is definitely a a fantasy book written by a science fiction author who's not particularly interested in ah fantasy. I don't think that that's a hard... James Hedrick ah I don't think anybody would would disagree with that. And of course, you know um we're not going to get into spoilers. I guess we won't get into spoilers quite yet, but he definitely it definitely goes planetary real fast. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And then the letter, third or half of the book, is almost entirely you know what you would think of as a standard sci-fi or a standard sci-fi setting anyway. SethH Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH So what what was it about this one that kind of made you want to talk about it? James Hedrick Well, i just, I really, i really do like this book and I'm going to, I'm probably going to criticize it a bit more than, than I think is, than you might otherwise otherwise think. SethH hmm. James Hedrick Or, you know, for someone who says to be a fan of this book, I really do like this book. It's, it's enjoyable. If you like Heinlein, it's definitely sort of second tier, one of his, his books, but it gives, you know, he's, he's trying something a little different and it's one of those kinds of books. That's really, if it's your favorite book, when you're 14, that's fine. it's your favorite book, when you're 34, you might, James Hedrick need to re-examine, you know, your approach to literature, but it really does kind of, you know, the the book in and of itself, I think he's trying something interesting that he, that Heinlein doesn't usually do, which he's he's, he's writing about nostalgia. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick This is a book ah that's ostensibly about nostalgia, right? There's multiple times, you know, um Scar Gordon, E.C. Gordon, the the main character, he comments one time, you know, Heinlein can't write a book without mentioning Barsoom. James Hedrick You know, so he talks about bars the moons of Barsoom. SethH Right, right. James Hedrick ah Every book he ever wrote um talks about the moons Barsoom. And so he talks about falling into a book. Right. The main character talks about falling into a book. And it's really this book is a book about nostalgia. James Hedrick Go get back in your bed, buddy. And about how you, you know, it's it's even kind of. ah there's There's an approach to it where it's kind of written to and about fans of science fiction and the fantasy genre as people that kind of like wish that that type of adventure existed in the world. James Hedrick And it also spends a little time before we get to spoilers, poking kind of fun at them and and deflating that bubble a little bit. SethH Right. James Hedrick But there's a thought here about what does it mean to really... engage with the material, engage with the genre and think about, you know, do you really want this or is this a really fun escape for you? And I think that Highland is trying to get at that. James Hedrick It would be nice if he focused on that and stopped focusing on several page diatribes about sex. But he is, yeah he is trying, I think, to talk a but little bit about the nature of the genre and the nature of what it means to enjoy fantasy and science fiction and speculative fiction. SethH right James Hedrick So it's one of the reasons I enjoy the book. ah is he's doing something a little bit different. And, you know, it's still it's still a fun adventure story if you read want to read it that way. And then there's a little more to it if you want to kind of give give some thought to what he's trying to say to you. SethH Yeah. Yeah. And yeah I'll say I more or less enjoyed this one. um i I felt like, yeah. James Hedrick I think that's the appropriate level of enjoyment. so I think it's the appropriate level of enjoyment. SethH And James Hedrick Hmm. SethH the I was enjoying it for what it was, and then it kind of shifts two thirds of the way in. And I thought, oh, I thought we were done. And I was goingnna i was going to be like, that was that was really fun. um you know ah Along the lines of of his lighter stuff like Farmer in the Sky. James Hedrick Yeah, it was really fun, yeah. James Hedrick Ooh, yeah, it definitely has a, yeah, that kind of vibe. SethH Or James Hedrick Yeah. SethH or or or any other, like it reminded me a little bit of The Wizard of Oz, because it's you know go to place, have conflict, have fight, you know go to another place. James Hedrick Mm-hmm. James Hedrick Yeah, silly. SethH um and And it's kind of a portal fantasy as well, which Wizard of Oz is kind of that. James Hedrick It very much is, yeah. SethH Yeah. um James Hedrick Yeah. SethH and And then this so the latter third of the book was was where I kind of went, I'm not sure that I'm liking this anymore. um So we we can definitely get to that in spoilers. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH so James Hedrick Absolutely. SethH um There's an Alaska connection in here. I'm from Alaska originally. And and it it talks about, I think his mother is on Elmendorf Air Force Base, which is in Anchorage, which is where I grew up. James Hedrick Yes. SethH That's that's where we went to the air shows when I was a kid. James Hedrick Oh, nice. SethH um So um yeah, how about how just a real quick non-spoiler, what is this book actually about? James Hedrick All right. James Hedrick Yeah, so a real quick non-spoiler is that E.C. Scar Gordon is the main character, and he it's told from his point of view. It's entirely in the first person. And he is involved. It's an early 60s setting, and he's obviously involved in a war somewhere in Asia that is not Vietnam. James Hedrick Quote, unquote, not Vietnam. SethH Great. James Hedrick ah This is absolutely a book about Vietnam. SethH Yes. James Hedrick It's not Vietnam. And he is stuck there because he can't avoid the draft. He goes to his draft board. He says, take me. He goes into Vietnam, and he ends up seeing a whole lot of combat. um and finally gets out um you know gets out of combat, gets discharged, and ends up in in Europe hanging out, where he meets a beautiful woman that is described for several pages of very purple prose. James Hedrick um Unfortunately, a little little over the top, even for Heinlein. SethH Well, he didn't expect you to just believe him that she was the most beautiful. James Hedrick ah SethH and He had to go in excruciating detail. James Hedrick Excruciating detail. And then tell, you know, it's that old show, don't tell. But in he in case this case, Heinlein wants to show it, tell you, show it, and then tell you again. ah But he meets the beautiful woman and that begins the adventure that that he goes. SethH Yes. James Hedrick And they end up at first, ah they end up on a world that's not Earth, but is very much medieval-ish Earth or maybe ancient ah Roman-ish Earth. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick um There's a few adventures there. They eventually, um you know, they go to another world. They hop to another world. There's some dimensional hopping here, which is very interesting, I think. They get to another world, they go up, they find, and they they um they finish the quest, they get the thing, and that's not the end of the book. I think that's what you were saying with it sort of ends two-thirds, and the sort of the back half of the book, or the back third of the book, is all about what happens to a hero after the quest is done, right? James Hedrick And that's kind of, you know, in your standard fantasy, you know, in the early 20th century, right? SethH Red. James Hedrick you go You go to the place, you have the quest, you win the thing, you come back, and we all live happily ever after, or in the case of Tolkien, SethH Red. James Hedrick everyone else lives happily ever after and you get to go to the gray havens, you know, that kind of thing. SethH Red. James Hedrick And so it's, it, ah it spends a little bit more time, um you know, sort of on what happens after the adventure is done part of it. And that gets to a little bit of Heinlein moralizing that, you know, anyone that's read him will know he tends to fall into. James Hedrick um But it's an interesting approach to it because it really does try to focus on that and really explore, you know, what is the nature of, of the quest and what is the nature of heroism after you're all done with it, you know? SethH Mm hmm. James Hedrick And that's kind of the quick elevator pitch, non-spoiler. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. And I liked just as a as a Gen X person, the fact that he found this quest essentially in the want ads right in the paper um where it's, yeah, yeah it it reminded me of the equalizer, which is a show in the eighties, you know, and now there's movies and there's like a reboot TV show as well, but like, it was always, he, it was a want ad, you know, do you need, do you need help, you know, James Hedrick And want ad. Dude, he'd help. SethH And this one, it is so detailed about matching up with his perfect kind of Marty Stu character. Are you the champion? James Hedrick Oh, yeah, yeah. SethH Are you alpha? James Hedrick I just loved. SethH are you in alpha James Hedrick oh yeah Oh yeah, exactly. Are you, you know, should you, should you have your own podcast and be talking about it? It's really funny. I think it's like Heinlein is occasionally funny and occasionally thinks he's funny and really isn't. James Hedrick But I do have, I have to say that the one ad piece always really amused me because not only is it the one ad, are you a coward is the but thing on the title, but it's then he turns away and he tries to get away from like, he reads the, he reads the one ads he's like, oh that's, that looks a lot like me. SethH Right. James Hedrick I'm not going to do that now. And then he turns around, he finds the one ad in this lockbox, you know, are you a coward? SethH Right. James Hedrick and And then he sees it on the street, you know are you a coward? And he's like, all right, I give up. I'm like, the call to adventure has come. I must, I must answer. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick So it yeah was, that was actually a pretty good bit. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick I thought middle of the book or the beginning of the SethH Mm-hmm. I say we just go ahead and dive into into spoilers because, you know, this is ah James Hedrick book. Okay. Yeah. SethH 60 year old book. And, um, so people can check it out if they want to, if you, if you want to get it the, the audio version is like nine hours. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH Um, I did most of this one on audio, so it makes it so it's, I always, anytime I do primarily audio, I don't have as many notes, um, because it's by the nature of listening to an audio book while I'm driving, you know, I can't take down any notes that I want to talk about. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Please don't take notes while you're driving. SethH Um, and, uh, James Hedrick yes Yeah. SethH No, no, this it's this is not a good idea. um so So yeah, I don't have a ton of stuff written down, but um but yeah, like I said, don't be spoiled. If if if you're a fan of Heinlein's work, you'll probably enjoy this one. um i'd I'd be curious to hear from people who like his other work and how how this one compares. SethH So yeah, let's go ahead and go into spoilers. Let's talk more about the characters, because we we we mentioned ah Scar, who ends up going by Oscar, because he's essentially... James Hedrick All right. Cool. James Hedrick Oscar. SethH asked his name and he says, oh, I'm not sure, like an idiocracy. um But he goes, oh, Scar, you know. And so now his name is Oscar. James Hedrick Yeah. Now his name is Oscar. Yeah. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick I mean, I believe his name is, his original name is Evelyn Cyril. So I think he says something in there. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick It's like, am might as well get rid of that one. It's working in much anyway. SethH Right. Yeah. that That is a very like 50s male name, right? James Hedrick So yeah. James Hedrick Oh yeah. SethH You don't, you don't. James Hedrick That's SethH Yeah. James Hedrick yeah You don't get, you don't get names like that anymore. SethH got You got Meredith's and Evelyn's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick no SethH um James Hedrick Okay, buddy. SethH And then star. James Hedrick Bedtime, bud. And Star, yeah, who I guess we're we're into spoilers so we can say who she eventually becomes. SethH So. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick and and And Star is the beautiful woman that he meets on the beach in an island and off France, I believe, if I'm remembering correctly. SethH yeah I think i think he was a niece, right? James Hedrick And Nice, that's it, Nice, yeah. SethH But yeah. James Hedrick And so she ends up being, as you find out later in the book after the end of the quest, that's what the back third of it is about, is that she is the empress of the universe, for lack of a better term. called the, her wisdom or the wisdom or her wisdom is, is her title. SethH Right, right. James Hedrick And she is the, she ends up being the Empress of the universe and needs a hero to go get, to go capture, uh, um, basically a, a supercomputer that holds the identities of all previous emperor, universal emperors and emperors and empresses. James Hedrick Um, and that's what they go and they find in the tower protected by uh, an entity called the eater of souls, which I gotta be pretty good. It's pretty good name for a bad guy, honestly. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick yeah And then there's Jocko is the only other real character that shows up. ah Well, it's a couple of side characters, but Jocko, who is, he is a scars ah Batman, I suppose his backup, his backup guy. SethH ah No, that's, that's Rufo you're thinking of. James Hedrick Rufo. I'm sorry, not Rufo. SethH Right. James Hedrick Jocko is the, is the, sorry, Jocko is the character that they meet on the first planet. SethH Yeah. that James Hedrick Yeah. Sorry. Rufo is that character. And she, and he ends up being, I believe the grandson of the Empress by some weird connection. SethH Yes. James Hedrick That's genetic. Yeah. there And those those are the three that go on the quest and Rufo ends up being his his backup guy. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick And they um they go through, they mean they meet Jocko on the planet that's um sort of a stand-in for medieval England and ah They have some adventures there. They kill some dragons, um fight ah fight a couple of golems, and there couple of a couple goms and ah they go through there, and then they get to the tower where the Eater of Souls protects it, and they fire fight a bunch more golems with ray guns and lasers, and there's a mental fight in the middle of tower. SethH Yeah. Golems, yeah. James Hedrick and the middle of tower they grab the SethH Yeah. James Hedrick ah the MacGuffin for lack of a better term. And then they head back and then they, they escape. And that was sort of, think as you were saying earlier, that's kind of where the story should end or you think the story, you know, is going to end. James Hedrick um SethH Yeah, it's the big reveal, right? James Hedrick Yeah. That she's, that's where he finds out that she's the Empress of, of the universe essentially. SethH Yeah, he had been sort of assuming she was a princess of some kind. you know She's Princess Leia, essentially. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH They're they're you know having to go through the trash compactor with her. James Hedrick Basically. Yeah. SethH um In this case, it was a golem. I found a lot of that the early going of the book charming. It was just fun. It was just funny it was ah it is an adventure book that I think I would have liked as a kid. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH And you know he gets to this this planet. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH and He accepts the adventure. And she's like, I'm sorry. you're probably going to die because every no nobody's ever survived a match with, I can't remember what the name is, of Igli. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH Yes, and with an Igli. James Hedrick english SethH um and And I really enjoyed the description of it because I was picturing a golem just being made of rock. But it essentially looks like ah a large hairy man. James Hedrick yeah SethH um James Hedrick yeah SethH and And so he he has to figure out. And he makes this grand plan about, OK, I'm going to lure him down to the water. And then at just the right time, we'll push him into the water and and we can drown him because he probably can't swim. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH And that does not work out. um James Hedrick Does not work even a little bit. No. SethH Yeah, yeah, yeah. um and And so those those fights are fun and like the the inventive ways of of somehow folding the golem up smaller than it could possibly be, right? James Hedrick feed SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Feeds himself his own foot and then keeps going. SethH Yeah, yeah yeah James Hedrick Yeah. That was, that was, there are some inventive. SethH yeah, yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH It reminded me of like a labors of a Hercules kind of solution to something. James Hedrick Oh, yeah, yeah. That's actually, ah that's a really good, I mean, Heinlein is very much, you know, a student of, you know, ancient history, you know, the the the classic, classical history. So that's, that's probably a good connection to where he would have, he would have pulled some of his material like that. SethH Yeah. Mm James Hedrick And it was, I think you're right, like there's some very inventive kind of fight scenes in there, right? He goes after the dragons and there's a whole, um he fights the Iggy, the Construct, and feeds him his own foot and then slowly feeds in the rest of himself until he disappears, right? SethH hmm. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick and there's a whole And there's a whole line of of other angry-looking animals sitting there watching him fight the Iggly as he tries to push him off and drown him. SethH Right. James Hedrick So that one is really good. He fights the dragons, and he figures out that they can't breathe fire that long because it's a swamp gas thing. And and there's a big there's a big bit in that. SethH Right. James Hedrick And so they you know sneak by the dragons. SethH and And the dragons are funny because they're they're much more science fiction dragons than they are fantasy dragons, right? Because it goes out of its way to star say, well, no, no, it's, you know, glands essentially that push out these gases that ignite. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH Right. And it reminded me of reign of fire, the Christian, Christian Bale movie. James Hedrick Oh, the Christian Bale movie. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH um Because they they, they talk about the mechanics of that. And I'm like, well, that's a science fiction way of talking about dragons. Right. James Hedrick Well, yeah. Oh, it absolutely is. And it's right. You know, it, it just struck me as, as pure golden age science fiction, right. Where you have to stop for a minute and explain how the weird thing works. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Right. You know, Heinlein does this in, in, you know all the Lazarus long books when he talks about faster than light travel. SethH Yes. James Hedrick Right. You know, and they, well, he explains it and then he hand waves it. So, you know, in, in pure science fiction fashion, but it is, SethH Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick ah Very much that approach. yeah SethH And the, the other kind of science fantasy part of it it is star carts starts telling him about, I think she calls it metaphysical, metaphysical geometry. James Hedrick Metaphysical geometry. SethH Um, James Hedrick Yeah. There's a, everything is a math metaphor for the magic in there. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH Yeah, yeah. And so there is magic, but it's it's more of a science-y magic. James Hedrick Yeah. And he, you know, it's all, it's all drawn pentagrams, but you have to make the right pentagram, right? She draws a very, specialized, you know, five-pointed star. SethH Right. James Hedrick And then they have a, um I thought that, you know, the, um they had the box, right? They had the luggage that they carried with them. and And in my mind, if you're, if you're a Terry, if you're a fantasy fan, you've read Terry Pratchett, right? SethH Yes. James Hedrick And in the Terry Pratchett novels, Rincewind the wizard is followed around by an animated luggage that is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside, right? SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick And they are carrying a luggage, but they, in in real science fantasy fashion, have to unfold it, and it unfolds to bigger than it is. You don't just open it and it's magically bigger, like a bag of holding. SethH Right. James Hedrick It unfolds in a certain way is to to make it bigger. So it's a very, um everything everything that's come across has this kind of, yeah, metaphysical geometry, math metaphor explanation for it. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And I think that's that's very much in Heinlein's vein, you know, even when he's writing about dragons. SethH Yeah. Yeah. SethH Yeah. so So there's some gender politics stuff here that you're always going to encounter in in older science fiction and fantasy, right? And and i sometimes I just shake my head and I'm like, you know, he he's Oscar is trying to be pretty honorable, right? James Hedrick Yes. SethH Like he he's's he's not wanting to to just sow his wild oats, right? James Hedrick Yes. SethH And he's like, well, I like this woman. And so when he's presented with three women that that come seeking him at night, he's like, pass, you know? James Hedrick Yes. Yeah. SethH um James Hedrick Yeah. SethH And and that that, of course, offends Jocko. James Hedrick aense jocko on none but yeah SethH um Yeah. and And, you know, and a little bit of warning about about this kind of stuff have gone a long way. um James Hedrick I'm just saying that you know the the both Star and Rufo talk about how much time they spend on Earth, particularly Rufo mentioned it seriously. And no one thought to give Oscar a heads up. SethH yeah. James Hedrick you know i SethH yeah James Hedrick That really seems like a – if you're named her wisdom, you might want to figure it out. SethH Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick but Think ahead on on that one. SethH She, she, she didn't think she needed to, uh, she didn't know how backward he was, but, um, you know, so he's, he's trying to be honorable and stuff and eventually proposes and try certain and they try and figure out what kind of marriage ceremony they can, can they do? James Hedrick Yeah. Yeah. SethH Do they have access to the right kind of clergy or something? And like, they finally settle on, well, we can jump over your sword. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH Um, and he almost immediately announces his, his intention to occasionally beat her. Um, and I like, what, what, what, James Hedrick Yes, so gender politics of Glory Road. um they're They're not great. I don't i don't think even you you can give it the usual, it was the 60s kind of pass on that because, yeah, a lot of that just comes... SethH Yeah. James Hedrick you know you you And this is something you encounter, you know, in reading early fantasy as well, too. Like, Voyage to Arc Tourist has some of this in it, David Lindsay. James Hedrick And it's like, man, you're getting you're getting you're going there. You're getting there. You're trying to be more progressive, quote unquote, than the times that you're living in. But every now and then you'll get something like that. Yeah, where it's, you know, give thrown off as an offhand line about beating somebody. And it's just not, it doesn't, it it it throws you out of, at least it throws me out. And it's one of those things that you just kind of, James Hedrick You don't have to accept it. That's not what I'm saying. But you it's hard to read past it. SethH No. James Hedrick And it's hard to and you need to you need to you need to sort of, i think, accept that and read. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick though And you're like, yeah, you're talking you're reading somebody who has some very regressive gender politics in it. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Even when he's trying to sort of be, you know, he's got a you know strong, quote, unquote, strong female character know sitting right there. SethH Yeah. SethH Right. James Hedrick Even if you look at some of his other work, Friday is a really good example where he has a female main character and it's a spy novel essentially, right? SethH Mm James Hedrick Sci-fi spy novel Friday. And, ah but the end of it, the resolution of the story for the the female main character there is to be pregnant and have a child and settle down. And you're like, just read 200 pages about how awesome she is at whooping up on people and okay. James Hedrick All right. So the fulfillment of her life's goal is to to settle down. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And so, SethH Well, yeah, and there's a couple other things where, like, he described how able she is and how, you know, she's kind of an Amazon woman and stuff and how how how she can take care of herself. and And he sets that in the context of, well, it'd be hard to rape her ah because she could fight somebody off. James Hedrick Yeah, and it's just... SethH And you're like, what? That's okay. Yeah. James Hedrick that That can't be the line, man. That can't be the line the the board the that can't be the level you're trying to get over, Heinlein. SethH No. SethH That's not the benchmark, right? James Hedrick It's just, no, it shouldn't be. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick It's got to be higher than that. And it does. That's a good, that's a, I mean, not a good example, but it's definitely a a relevant example of of how it goes. And it's just that like, you you can make these points even then without kind of resorting to that. James Hedrick But that's the mindset in which you're sort of, and you know, in which they're sort of existing. And I think you see it, SethH Yeah. James Hedrick You see it in Heinlein. Heinlein's bad about that. he you The Lazarus Long, I think Time Enough for Love has some of that in there too, where he ends up um knowing someone from when she was a child and ends up marrying her when she gets old enough. SethH hmm. James Hedrick But it's totally hand-waved. what Yeah, exactly. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick and you know that that just ah he every Almost every Heinlein book I can think of has at least some example of that. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And this one's no... you know, it doesn't miss on this. There's even, there's a whole thing about how he doesn't want to sleep with anybody when he's in Asia because they all look like children and it's just dwelled on way, way too much um for it to be really that, you know, you're, you're sitting there going, okay, man, we got it three pages ago, you know, and that it's going to be, it's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of modern read. SethH Right. Yeah. SethH Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick really is. SethH yeah Yeah. And to be fair about the the grooming thing, like you're kind of talking about from, you know, knowing somebody from when they're a child, um it's kind of inverted here because Star has had her eye on him for a really long time and has been, you know, specifically training him to become this hero. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah, I thought that, yeah, it was a little weird. SethH and And that was a little weird. James Hedrick And I think it's, I don't, you know, i think if, ah if, if this were written by someone now, you know, if it were written by a modern author, they might have explicitly made that the case, right? You watch this reverse grooming for lack of a better term, right? James Hedrick And in in the non-sexual sense, but in the sense of like trying to create, you know, what you need out of someone. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And I think that you, that's an interesting part in the latter third of the book when you ah Scar Oscar has this conversation with Rufo and Rufo clues him in, right? SethH yeah Yeah. James Hedrick He basically leads him, Socratic method leads him to like, Dude, she played you from the start, right? The reason that you were in Asia is because she kept you from getting into college, right? That was the, you know, subtext of it. SethH Right. James Hedrick The reason that you kept getting busted back to corporal and leading patrols is because she kept making people bust you back to corporal and lead patrols, right? SethH yeah James Hedrick And so there there is this whole bit of... She threatened... Like, she puts you in harm's way for years and, like... SethH yeah James Hedrick like did your, you know, controlled your life for years so that you could potentially, you know, so that you could reach your full potential. Right. SethH who James Hedrick And i think it's, I think one of the things that disappoints me about this book a little bit um is that Heinlein gets to that point, right. He goes through, he shows like the after, the aftermath of heroism, the aftermath of the quest. James Hedrick And he gets, he leads Oscar to that point, right. Where in you have every reason to be, upset, right. Very, very upset in in this case. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Um, and then pulls it back. He doesn't take it to the point of like having a full break or having some sort of actual drama. Um, you know, in the, in the literary sense between somebody that has, has literally, you know, yeah, they, they, so they gave you every, every reward you could have wanted for the performance, right. You, you did what you said you were going to do and you got the girl and you got the money and you got to go see, you know, the universe. Right. James Hedrick Um, But it never leads to this break of like, that's a pretty big betrayal. Right. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And I think that in a modern author that took that would probably really emphasize that thing, that reversal of roles that's happening here. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And I don't think that Heinlein is nearly using it quite that deftly. Right. I don't think he's embracing that. SethH No, no. And yeah Oscar, does he he does not go to therapy to work through these issues, right? James Hedrick he He does not. He he he he will fight mini dragons to avoid therapy, as to borrow the the little the Twitter joke. SethH Yeah, yeah. James Hedrick So, yeah. SethH Yeah, yeah. There's one other thing that I just feel like is unforgivable. And ah yeah I'm laughing about it, but it's horrifying. And where at some point, Oscar does something really kind for for a young boy. James Hedrick Yeah. Yeah. SethH and And she says to him, Star says to him, you know, I'm really impressed that you did that because, you know, if you were doing that with a woman, i would think maybe you were trying to bed her. And he kind of goes, well, you know, and i'm like and and there's some line like, well, in some cultures, you know, that they're considered a delicacy. James Hedrick yeah's SethH I'm like, no, but no, we don't need to go there. James Hedrick No, no, no, no. we really We really don't. SethH Nobody needs that information. James Hedrick And it's, it's again, it's it's one of those things that makes, I would never, you know, with with a lot of older authors or older books, Heinlein included, and I hate to keep going off on on other books and other and other authors, but it's one of those reasons that I never, you know, emphasize, you know, in something about dragons or i mean a canon of literature, even like going through Hugos and stuff, SethH No. SethH yeah James Hedrick man, if you're if you're a fan of science fiction and fantasy, you know read what you want to read. Some of this stuff, you just, wherever you draw the line on your own particular thing. But yeah, he makes this joke about like you know older men, younger younger men kind of thing, 60s joke about homosexuality. SethH yeah James Hedrick It's not really a joke, right? um SethH right James Hedrick And it's just not, it it doesn't land, it doesn't hit. I hope it didn't hit then. And it is one of those things along with sort of the the jokes about you know beating and rape that will just, that that ought to just whiplash you out of it a little bit. James Hedrick And you're kind of like, and anybody that gets to those points with any, with Heinlein Indian glory road is not the worst example of, of Heinlein going down these roads. SethH Yeah. yeah James Hedrick I, You know, i no blame for anybody that reads that and goes, you know what? not Not for me. I'm not i'm not getting into that you know kind of thing. SethH Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick It's not the foundation of the the book. Like, I have a lot bigger problems with folks like Edgar Rice Burroughs, for whom, like, racism and sexism is the foundation of what they're writing about. SethH Oh yeah. James Hedrick But you you, oh, God, it's eugenics. SethH Eugenics, right? Yeah. James Hedrick Edgar Rice Burroughs. And Heinlein is pulling from Burroughs, right? He's pulling from Barsoom, those adventure stories. SethH Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. James Hedrick You throw in a dash of pulp and you've got Glory Road. That's what it is. um But, you know, even if you like Heinlein and even if you're you're interested in what he says in things like Stranger in a Strange Land or Moon and a Harsh Mistress, um even here in Glory Road, you're still going to have whiplash from the fact that he is just, he is marinated in, you know, early 20th century sexism and stuff. James Hedrick And it just, it pops out at the oddest time or at the the most inopportune moments of of character development. SethH Yeah, yeah. James Hedrick And it makes it, you know. SethH And it's it's interesting, too, because it kind of contrasts with some of the discussions about the commoditization of of sex on Earth, right? James Hedrick Yeah. Yeah. SethH um Which I thought was a really interesting discussion because, because yeah, like like you look back in in the history of... SethH dowries and bride prices and and even even the way like the Old Testament values women, um where where you know you are purchasing the the sexual availability of this woman, right? James Hedrick Yeah. Exactly. James Hedrick of this woman and and into that family. SethH and and And then, yeah, and her value goes down after after her virginity is gone, right? James Hedrick yeah Yeah. SethH you know And this its it's gross. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH um And as somebody who reads the Bible, I'm like, it's gross. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick And still, yeah. SethH um and and and And it's interesting that that Star says, well, yeah, there's no there's no prostitution anywhere but Earth because because of that lack of commoditization. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. and that's And that's the thing is you you see Heinlein, even in hindsight, you know, at the time, you would definitely think of Heinlein as a progressive author. Now, we would definitely think of him as almost a regressive author. James Hedrick He's very much a libertarian in the right wing sense of that term. SethH Right. Right. James Hedrick And so you do get these discussions and you're like, all right, you're going the right, you know, I think you're going in the right way. And there's an interesting, like you said, interesting discussion of the oldest profession, you know, that kind of thing that that comes up. I think he's, I think it's a little, it's not, you know, it's not a full universal, but it's definitely a universal sort of Western culture, however you want to say Western, you know, culture, but, but definitely some, SethH Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. James Hedrick you know but biblical basis, you know Western Europe through the medieval period in ancient Rome. like that that It's all there. and it's you know And that kind of sexism is is absolutely there. and And he just, he he pulls it in and he keeps pulling from it. And he's just kind of marinating in it. And it's it does. it it It throws you off a little bit. and But he's, you know, you're seeing someone that's trying, you know, this we're we're leading up to the hippie movement, right? We're talking 63, 64. So he's writing it in the early 60s. We're not quite We haven't quite hit British invasion, right? James Hedrick We haven't quite hit full 60s as we think of the 60s, most of which happened in the 70s, but, you know, whatever. SethH yeah James Hedrick um But, like, you are still seeing some of this cultural revolution starting to happen. And I think it's interesting that you see it in a mainstream author, like, you know, a mainstream science fiction author. James Hedrick Let's, you know, um like when dealing with these issues and really trying to, like, you know, SethH yeah James Hedrick write about them in what would have then been a very interesting you know way and a very new you know way to talk about like the you know the commodification of sex that's happening for teenagers and teenage you know life and in America in the late 50s and early 60s. James Hedrick Sex, drugs, and rock and roll are just getting started, right? um But yeah, then every but then every now and then he kind of stopped. He he does what I always find with Highlands. He stops short of taking it to its full conclusion because he just can't quite get... SethH Yeah. James Hedrick He's too much a generation back, I think. He's ah he's a person of the 20s and 30s, really. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And he just, he can't quite get himself fully into a ah ah headspace where equality means equality and not equality means, you know, it's okay if I have sex with you is basically where you get with Heinlein, you know, and that's, that's where he stops. SethH Right. Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick And he stops in a lot of these, these areas. And it's, it, it's a consistent issue in Heinlein's novels, even the ones that are progressive quote unquote. SethH hmm. SethH Yeah, yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH So anytime an author brings up a multiverse, right, or or or multiple planets, right, you always have the opportunity to ask questions about, well, how is Earth different, right? James Hedrick Yeah. SethH And and this prostitution thing was one of the differences. James Hedrick Yeah. it Yeah. SethH And I'm reminded of of like ah the Fountains of Paradise where there's a probe that comes through and is able to – humanity is able to ask it questions like, hey, are there are there are do people believe in God on other planets? James Hedrick Oh, yeah. SethH he's like, no, no. Some, but not many. and And here, yeah, and here they're talking about systems of government on these different worlds. James Hedrick Not a lot. SethH And they're like, yeah, democracy happens, but not that often. James Hedrick Yes. SethH um James Hedrick Yeah. SethH and and And most of the time it's an auto autocracy of some kind. And the the key to almost every, the know, the answer to almost every leadership leadership decision is give it out a little while, you know, just wait. James Hedrick Yeah, wait a while. SethH Yeah, see what happens. Every now and then you have to destroy a world. um But... James Hedrick I always love that Heinlein, no matter what his discussion of of ah politics, always comes back to military force. like the for like This is true, Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Troopers territory, with Heinlein's idea how government works. SethH Yeah, yeah, big time. James Hedrick It's interesting, too, along the idea of this, goes into... Heinlein's obsessed with two things, and sex and politics. And so any of these ah asides that come up in his his novels, it's always sex or politics. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick And when he gets into this political discussion, it does harken back to something we mentioned a little bit earlier, is that Heinlein is a student of classics. And I mean, classical literature is in Greek classics. And so he is he's really pulling from um Plato's Republic and some Aristotelian thought there. James Hedrick when he talks about democracy being a sort of dead-end form of government, right? he's he's really He's really hearkening back to sort of Plato and Aristotle talking about oligarchy, you know, autocracy and democracy, right? That tripartite system of the Greek city-states. SethH yeah James Hedrick And, you know, and and they Plato and the rest watch democracy fail over and over again in this world of of ancient Greece. And so Heinlein picks up on that, I think. And he was also um so he's picking up that from the classical. James Hedrick And I think that he also like he was a bit of a disappointed ah New Dealer. Like, because he was a he was a active um sort of New Deal style. ah I think he ran i think he ran for city council in California ran for he ran for some political office and he was a campaigner. James Hedrick And so he was kind of a disappointed um new Dealer. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick um you know, as he gets into his later years um and he becomes sort of a more libertarian. So he's sort of been, he was, he started as an idealist in the twenties and thirties himself and then became more disillusioned over time. So I think you see it come out with when he talks about the the galactic, well, actually not galactic, universal and multiple universe form, the 20 big universe, 20 universes, I think is what they call it in the book. James Hedrick And when he talks about the the government of her wisdom, yeah his his thing is like yeah just wait a while and you'll either all kill each other or you know i'll so I'll blow up your planet or cut off your your interdimensional travel. SethH yeah James Hedrick And that's that's a real swing in his personal politics and a kind of, you know you go from the New Deal to the Cold War. And I think that explains a lot of Heinlein's political commentary and in his books. SethH And there's there's another one of those things. James Hedrick you know SethH If you've ever seen that meme of the person riding the bike and then reaching down and sticking a stick in their own spokes, uh, like here, here we have star who is the Empress of the, yeah of these 20 universes, right? James Hedrick like SethH You know, that's amazing. James Hedrick isnt SethH A woman, a woman has power here because of course she has hormone regulators. James Hedrick Yeah, a woman has power. SethH Cause otherwise how could a woman fairly rule? Right. And like, oh man. James Hedrick Oh God, I, i oh man, come on, dude. No, I just was thinking, it was like, that there was one other sexism thing I was trying and it was that one. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick it was the It was the one about, yeah, we don't let her have her period anymore because you know how ladies how the ladies get right? SethH Mm-hmm. SethH Right. James Hedrick And I'm like, dude, dude, come on, man. SethH Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. James Hedrick That can't be, where we can't be talking about that. Like, have you met men? I'm just saying, like, I'm sorry. SethH Right. James Hedrick We've convinced everyone that anger is not an emotion. So it's cool. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Right? Like it. SethH Well, and he he he would say, well, but men more predictably suck. So James Hedrick That's, that's, yeah they're consistently terrible. And so, and he does have, in addition to the the weirdly sexist sidebar that occasionally throws in there, he does have this thing where he talks about like the very pious emperor who was terrible. SethH yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick So Star, like when Star absorbs, you know, the memories of that particular emperor, um she learns a lot from him because he was terrible and he did so much stuff. SethH Yes. Mm-hmm. James Hedrick Now, not to be, not to put too fine a point on it or or to pull any sort of rank, but I have a PhD in political science. um ah and and I've studied, i studied a lot of politics and this is not in any way, shape or form how politics works. So anyone listening to this, please do not believe Robert Heinlein knows what he's talking about with politics. James Hedrick um He really doesn't, ah at least not as is as far as the research is concerned. um But he does, like he wants, he he wants you know, i think at the end when Heinlein gets into his political discussions, I think Gloria Rhodes a really good example. James Hedrick He wants everything to be kind of as it is right now, but just a little bit better for him personally. And I think that that's not the most uncommon political outlook in the world, right? SethH Yes. James Hedrick you know And I think that that's, he's annoyed about taxes and foreign aid, which comes up like three or four times in the book from a very... from let's face it, a main character who does not have a lot like ah in you know does not have a lot of interaction with either taxes or foreign aid. He just spends all his time trying to make sure he doesn't pay any taxes. James Hedrick um SethH Right. James Hedrick and And that's it. and it's Like I said, he's not a great political thinker, I think, in some things, but he's pulling from sources, some ancient sources, riffing on those, and then really trying... Like I said, he's not the most uncommon political ideology, which is I'm in a good spot and everything's kind of okay. I could be a little bit better for me personally though. And that's probably the highest, best use of our political system. SethH Right, right. James Hedrick And that's, you know, it is what it is for Heinlein. SethH Fortunately, nobody thinks like that anymore. James Hedrick No, no one at all. i Our politics are completely not like that at all. SethH Yeah, yeah. James Hedrick Yeah, I think that, yeah, I think that that, that is not, as like I said, not an uncommon thought. Yeah. SethH um I did think that the egg was an interesting idea um because, like you said, she's able to use this technology to kind of help her become ah a more able ruler, right? SethH um to To learn from the wisdom of of the people who have come before her. It reminded me of a memory called Empire, um some but some of the mechanics of that. James Hedrick Actually, yeah, that's a good, no yeah, it's good connection. SethH um I didn't totally understand the issue is at some point he's getting frustrated being a kept man, right? he He has all the money he needs, but he's got no adventure in his life. James Hedrick Yeah. Yeah. SethH And so he's, he's really down. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick I thought it was interesting. He keeps trying jobs and being just okay at them. SethH yeah James Hedrick And like, you know, I think that's the, that, that really encapsulates the Heinlein hero, right? SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Like you can't, just be pretty good at something, right? It's not, you can't do something for its own sake. You have to succeed and and be really good at it or or really, you know, praised for it. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And that ah that's an undercurrent of that piece and a sidebar. But I think it's interesting to watch Heinlein have his hero be just okay. And that be the real crisis of the latter half of the book. SethH Right, right. James Hedrick But sorry, you were saying about the, you were saying about the egg, SethH Yeah. And so he's he's kind of like, hey, um you know can we make a change here? Go do something different. And and she's like, well, I need like 30 years to finish studying the egg. James Hedrick Yeah. SethH So can you entertain yourself for 30 years? Yeah. SethH ah James Hedrick And I, I, I think that in a, ah and um and maybe I'm selling Heinlein a little short here, you know, you, in a defter writer's hands, you might've thought you might've found more Easter eggs about that length of time, right. James Hedrick Before you get the reveal that, that she conned him the whole time, right. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick that That this was a long con by star to get him to be the person that she needed him to be. And that she knew that he wouldn't stick around. Like he just couldn't, like it's not the personality. And she, you know, that part about the egg, right, is like, she's like, well, I'm telling you know, she, you know, what the best way to lie is with the truth. James Hedrick And she's telling you the truth. It's just that she knows you're not going to stick around for 30 years. No one can handle that. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Like, you know, I mean, 30 years ago, I was 13. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick I don't think that's, you know, I've changed a lot. SethH yeah James Hedrick I know. SethH Right. James Hedrick but it's But it's interesting for Heinlein use the egg and and how it works and how it operates. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick Because he's focused on, i mean, he called her title is her wisdom, right? Or his wisdom, if it were, or a man. SethH right James Hedrick um and And so Heinlein is focused on knowledge here. Like that's what the egg represents, right? Experience, like learning without having to do, right? SethH yeah James Hedrick And I think it's interesting that he he uses this and he uses knowledge as the focus of the political power, right? He's convinced that if you have the right information, the right outcomes will follow, right? SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick That if the ruler has all the information and knows what would happen, you know, knows the percentages and knows the likely outcomes of a decision or ah change, then you would always make the right decision, right? James Hedrick I don't think that's actually right, but I think it's a fundamental part of Heinlein's view of what SethH No. James Hedrick politics is and the egg represents that, right? It's, it's, it's a MacGuffin full of knowledge and he's giving it, you know, he's saying that like, if you had this, you know, you would always make the right decision. SethH Yeah. SethH Right. James Hedrick And I'm like, that's not really how that works, but that's how he wants to believe that it works. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick And that's what that egg represents. And it works kind of interesting of that impression thing. It's not just a library, right? It's an experiential thing. You, you, I think it's clear in the book that if you're the wisdom or the emperor, James Hedrick or Empress, you have to experience this person's life. You kind of go through it. You don't get to, you know, it's kind of a 360, you know, full submersion kind of thing. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick And I think that's an interesting piece of it, of like, knowledge is more than just the facts. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick There's an experiential aspect to it. So I think that's a piece of it that works interestingly for Heinlein in that particular, in a way of doing it. SethH yeah SethH Yeah. And the other part of the 30 years was was basically he's asking her, look, how how long do you have to do this stupid job um before you can retire and we can go adventuring again? James Hedrick Yeah. Yeah. SethH and and And she's like, well, 30 years. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick 30 years. SethH um and And that'll allow her to to take on all the lessons from the egg and and you know be a just ruler and be able to find a replacement, be able to name her successor. James Hedrick Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. The replacement being the, yeah. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick The part of the, the sort of, uh, you know, the thing that kicks off the plot, right. Is she, she stars thrown into the wisdoms, um, job unprepared, right. She's only impressed a couple of, of former emperors on it. James Hedrick So she's coming in half trained. Right. SethH right right James Hedrick And that's, I think, yeah. And that's, I think, you know, you're half trained, you have an emperor, you know, you you, you have to have an emperor in waiting. Right. And, um, And actually this speaking of, I mean, Heinlein, you know, really what likes to show off is his classical knowledge. James Hedrick That's an old Roman emperor thing, right? You had an Augustus and you had a Caesar, right? That was the, that was, well, not comp, you know, that was part of during part of the Roman empire, that was the way it was was organized. SethH The rule of two from the Sith, right? James Hedrick And so she, Roll or two from the Sith. Actually, also yeah I don't think maybe George is stealing from more places than we think. SethH Yeah, yeah. James Hedrick ah But um you see that and that's what kicks off the the plot. Right. And and having to have this succession training and the succession planning, I think, is an interesting is an interesting part of that and having to learn and be the ruler. James Hedrick And also in the form in the in the face of the character. It's interesting that that he presents her as a half-trained and already this amazing, you know, Amazon ultimate ultimate warrior, ultimate ruler kind of thing. James Hedrick And I think that there's, you know, Heinlein is trying to get to this, you know, we talk about these like random flashes of of pretty ugly sexism in Heinlein. SethH Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. James Hedrick But I think he is trying to set up as like, listen, you know, you may be viewing this from the point of view of the hero and you are empathizing with the hero. you were the reader, right? He's assuming that you're a young man in the sixties. James Hedrick You're empathizing with the hero, but realize a half trained wisdom, like just conned this guy for his entire life. Right. And like you are, so she is so far of a step above you as to be, you know, know, these are orders of magnitude difference between you and her. James Hedrick And I think he's trying to really, like you said, like there's a female ruler of the galaxy. It's a, it's a, you know, SethH Yeah. James Hedrick uncommon thing, you know, to think of in the sixties, but he is really trying to set up this dichotomy between two them. SethH ah And she gets paddled by her husband when when she reveals the plan. Yeah. James Hedrick Oh my God. I know, i know, I know, I know. And I just, man, dude, did you just like, you were trying so hard Heinlein, but you are really stuck in the fifties. SethH but SethH Yep. James Hedrick It's, it's just what it is. SethH Yep. ye James Hedrick So yeah, he's, he's, he's doing his best, but he's not succeeding all or even maybe most of the time SethH No. SethH ye um The audiobook was interesting. the The version that I got was read by Bronson Pinchot. um And Rufo is presented as this very French... SethH guy, right? And, and, and in the book, in the print book, I noticed, when he was talking about star, her, she and her were always capitalized. SethH And in the audio book, he always says, when she, you know, and when who and it was, it was very interesting, the way he, he just launched on every single one of those he really, really emphasize them. James Hedrick Really hit really. SethH um And, yeah. James Hedrick And that's right. Yeah. He does capitalize it throughout. She and her capitalize. SethH Mm hmm. James Hedrick I bet, I bet he did a good job. I bet that he's a pretty good reader for this one. SethH Yeah, I thought he did an excellent job, actually. James Hedrick Yeah. When you were saying, I haven't done the audio book. I don't usually do audio fiction all that often. I do it sometimes. Um, when I, uh, you know, sometimes I'll pick it up for the library. I'll do audio fiction, but I have to, SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick ah I'm trying to listen and I'm trying to be in the story. and and And when I'm driving or dishes or something like that, it always, it always gets me some nonfiction. I do much more audio. SethH Yeah, yeah. James Hedrick And so like, I have some people that swear by, you know, um Oh, the guy that played ah speaking of weird gender politics, the guy that played spike on Buffy reads the Jim butcher novels and apparently is quite good, you know, and they, yeah, you've listened to a couple of those. SethH ah He is. Yeah, I've i've i've listened to a couple of those. Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah. And they say he's very good. SethH Mm James Hedrick yeah One day I'll get around to to reading it, but I bet he did. I bet he did a good job. This is definitely one that if you, wanted to perform it right, you could really sort of dig your teeth into it, I imagine. James Hedrick like Yeah, I bet Rufo's funny. SethH hmm. Yeah, and and despite you know everything everything that we've we've said about the the regressive stuff in there, it is a fun book, at least at least up until that point where he starts gazing at his navel a lot about about how he's got all the money in the world, but but he's bored. James Hedrick It is. James Hedrick But he's bored. It's so sad. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick Well, I think that... SethH Yeah, and so then he's got to go back to Earth and find that there was some kind of race ticket or something that he was able to cash in for a whole bunch of money, but then Uncle Sam took 80% of it. James Hedrick yeah James Hedrick yeah SethH Yeah. Yeah. James Hedrick Yeah, sweepstakes. Yeah, he gets a sweepstakes ticket and like it bumps him in the top tax bracket. SethH yeah James Hedrick Also, Heinlein does not understand how marginal tax rates work, so let's not go into that part of it. SethH No. James Hedrick But yeah, he he goes back to... it and i think again we are We are talking about, like we we are hitting a lot of the negative ports and there are some aggressive, you can't ignore it ah with Heinlein, but I think he is he is aiming at something here, right? SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick he's he He's at least aware enough to know that he has perfected this idea of the Heinlein hero, right? This person that is excellent in everything. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick I mean, the the character of Rufo is very obviously the character of Jubal Harshaw from Stranger in a Strange Land. It's just, you could pick him, they're the same guy. SethH Mm. Yeah, yeah. James Hedrick They're the same character. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick um And that character shows up quite quite frequently in Heinlein. And Oscar Gordon is an example of the sort of like, you know, really good at stuff Heinlein, you know, everything kind of Heinlein hero. And he is is kind of trying to get at this concept of like, once you've done the achievement, right? James Hedrick Once you've made an ultimate achievement, you saved the galaxy, right? You are Luke Skywalker, right? SethH Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. James Hedrick You know, and Luke Skywalker keeps having adventures. You are now stuck as the consort of the most powerful woman in 20 universes, right? And then when he tries to, and that's the that's the sort of denouement part of the the back third of the book, is he goes back to Earth and tries to get back into the life that he wanted for himself before he went to war, right? Before he went to Vietnam. James Hedrick And it doesn't work out for him because that's not what he ands not wants anymore. Right. And that's kind of what I set was mentioning earlier is this is a book about nostalgia. Right. Is that like, you know, there's there's, you know, you can't go home again. And I think Tolkien, you know, just to hit my fantasy here, Tolkien handles that very deftly with with Frodo. Right. At the end of The Lord of the Rings. Right. SethH yeah James Hedrick Right. Which is prior to this, at least in its original publication and then its paperback becomes more popular later. But like, you know, he handles that a bit more deftly of what war and combat and trauma acts, you know, do to to human to human beings. James Hedrick And Heinlein is really not concerned with with anybody that has any problem. You know, I think Heinlein would like, you know, um what was the World War Two general that slapped one of his soldiers that was suffering from show that Pat? SethH Patton. James Hedrick Of course, it was Patton. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick I was thinking Patton or MacArthur, but couldn't remember which one, ah but slaps one of the shoulders of suffering from shell shock, right? You know, battle fatigue, ah they would have called it then PTSD, we'd call it now. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick You know, Heinlein has no truck with that, right? He doesn't, he thinks that's a failure of character. SethH Right. James Hedrick And that's really, I think, where this falls down, right? Is he's, is he's really trying to examine the after effects of, of six of war, but successful war, right? SethH Mm-hmm. Yeah. James Hedrick Like I became a hero, not, I had to experience things that that were pretty horrific, you know? And so I think that's where Heinlein falls down when he's trying to do, trying to do this bit. SethH Yeah. SethH Yeah. James Hedrick Buddy. Yes, we can, but we can do it tomorrow. Can you go climb in your bed? Thank you, bud. SethH We should probably wrap up. James Hedrick oh I'll let you, oh yeah, let' let's wrap up. Otherwise you're going to, otherwise future chefs will be cut in half this, half these interviews. SethH No. James Hedrick Uh, it's going to be just nothing, but you could feel free to leave the occasional interruption, my four-year-old in, if it were, if it works funny, but if it, uh, if it doesn't, please cut him off. SethH Yeah. SethH There we SethH All right. James Hedrick Calvin would love to know that he's, that he's in something, but, uh, yeah. SethH Oh, excellent. Nice. SethH Yeah. I, this, this is an interesting one. And you know, like this isn't a book I probably would have picked up. I did not know that it existed. I had never really looked in and really dived into Heinlein's bibliography other than, you know, there's six of them on the Hugo in retro Hugo winners. James Hedrick yeah he's Yeah, all his top ones are on the Higo, yeah. SethH Yeah. And I've read some short fiction and stuff. And so, so I, I'm, I'm glad that we settled on this one because it was, it was a worthwhile reading it and and great discussion, James. James Hedrick No, thank you. I really enjoyed it. SethH Uh, James Hedrick I think you've got some, you you know, you're you're hitting, I think, the things that are interesting about Heinlein, right? heinland The things that are interesting about Heinlein and Glory Road now are not the things that Heinlein thought were interesting when he wrote it. James Hedrick You know what i mean? SethH yeah. James Hedrick there's there's there's um there's There's aspects of the book that are that are interesting, both you know in its position within science fiction and and even fantasy literature. SethH Right. James Hedrick I've actually thought about, and think I'm probably going to write about it on Something About Dragons. um When I get there, I haven't decided yet if it's going to be one. I can't read every book I want to read for that that one, so I'm not sure if I'm going to spend ah spend part of it on Glory Road. SethH right James Hedrick um But it's interesting. But it's interesting in the context of where where it was written, what it was written about, and how we read it now versus it how it would have been read in 1963. Yeah. And so I think that that's where you get the most out of this. James Hedrick A lot of Heinlein novels and a lot of classic science fiction novels, honestly, is you read them not because you should read them as a canon, but as because it helps inform, you know, modern science fiction or other types of science. SethH yeah James Hedrick And you learn something about it and you sort of are able to sort of start fitting pieces together. And I think I find that as interesting as anything about Heinlein and Glory Road. SethH yeah James Hedrick and Yeah. SethH Yeah. I think that'll suffice for final thoughts. So why don't we move into like, if people want to to find out more about your podcast, you know, where can they find you? James Hedrick Okay, yeah. So Something About Dragons, like I said, is a podcast about the history of fantasy in the 20th century. And i sort of i go I've decided to go chronologically. So I start 1900 and I read um things like The Wind and the Willows and I read The Wizard of Oz and I talk a little bit about those. And then we go into Edgar Rice Burroughs and then The Pulps. James Hedrick And so I find it really interesting. i really love The Pulps. I'm kind of deep in The Pulps right now. um Some of the early stuff, C.L. Moore, Robert Howard, Seabury Quinn, those are really, really great. James Hedrick you know great things to read. so So it's all about fantasy and sort of how it develops over time ah in the 20th century. And you can find me at somethingaboutdragons.com. I'm trying to finish getting that all all set up. There's a blog that goes along with every podcast. The podcast is on Spotify and all the all the major podcasts. You can find it. James Hedrick So just look for Something About Dragons and you can hear me you can hear me talk for 45 minutes about what I think about fantasy and where pulp paper comes from. So you know it's it's a very it's a very fascinating thing of why paper got cheap. SethH Awesome. James Hedrick So that had a lot to do with how science fiction and fantasy both developed was cheap paper. SethH Yeah, yeah, yeah. SethH Mm-hmm. James Hedrick So, yeah. SethH All right. All right. Well, James, this is an absolute pleasure. It was so fun talking to you about this book. So thank you so much for doing it. James Hedrick Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. SethH All right. Bye now. James Hedrick Bye.